How to determine Zin, Yout for RF transistor, from A parameters

There are better ways for that, now, too:

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(and other links on the About page)

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC 
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply to
Tim Williams
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Excel. ;-)

Reply to
krw

Sure. If you aren't doing cutting edge stuff you don't pay cutting edge prices. That's a surprise?

Gate array, perhaps. All the expensive masks are common. All you're doing is buying metal.

Reply to
krw

This program

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finds ratios based on the resistors that we have in stock.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

Yes, actually.

What I don't get:

How come all that old iron from the 60s and 70s, with big fat huge micron linewidths, isn't in peoples' garages? It just went straight to the scrap yard. (Except for the very few legacy lines that are making stuff like 741s and LM13700s.)

Another perspective: PCBs are hobbyist/maker friendly. Get a dozen little boards for about as many bucks.

Cheap PCBs have shitty specs, but they usually still meet IPC minimums (7/7 mils), and that's good enough for most SMT, and more than enough for any THT.

You can get much finer spec PCBs, just as easily -- if more expensive. The scaling of that expense seems to be maybe quadratic (3 times finer pitch -->

10 times cost), still depending on quantity of course.

But it's not like it's going to break your whole business model if you're building a device in your garage.

As soon as you put stuff on a wafer, it's suddenly a big deal, say with COMSIS and all that. Big fab stuff. Big bucks. Big lead times. Where's the guy with the garage fab spinning protos in a couple days?

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC 
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply to
Tim Williams

Because it cost more to run than it was worth.

That's surprising? If it's not needed for every application, it'll have a smaller market. Smaller market => more expensive. Rinse. Repeat.

You couldn't afford the infrastructure, if you could afford the tools.

Reply to
krw

I only starred at it a bit, but it looks to work, (a factor of 1-S22 cancels top and bottom.) (I know little of S-parameters)

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

I only checked the S12=0 case in my head while typing, but I also think it simplifies correctly. Btw, S12 not equal to zero should be called the NON-unilateral case.

Actual calculation with S-parameters is messy because they are complex-valued, that's why I like my Casio fx-991ES. Simple, non-graphing, but can do complex arithmetic both in x+iy and in the angular format on the fly (manufacturers usually give S-params in angular).

The simple reason for the more complicated formulae is that S120 implies feedback, and in this case the output termination affects the input impedance and vice versa. Like, if you change the output loading from 50 ohms (the S-param case) into a short (the Y-param case).

Regards, Mikko

Reply to
mikkivir

Indeed, I stand corrected.

Jeroen Belleman

Reply to
Jeroen Belleman

On a sunny day (Mon, 8 May 2017 21:15:52 +0100) it happened "Kevin Aylward" wrote in :

It think there is something very bad about that trend, and in fact I think it is not really happening that way. You are right about all those sims being used.

I have proposed, in a more politically oriented forum, the 'mama app' It is meant for CEOs' and higher, like presidents, the user interface is simple: mama I want

The rest is done by software that steers little robots. No education or experience is needed, you only need to learn how to say 'mama I want'

Then for the future of humanity and stability, well I have some ideas. History has shown we had to start from scratch after those highly developed civilizations collapsed Technology then got better.

Problem with mathematicians is that they tend to take formulas that are an approximation of reality and build their own universe on that. Mathematicians are OK to solve and build models from experimental data. But they need the reality check. Only in very rare cases does it work the other way around. we are, physical beings in a physical world, mathematics is just a subset in the neural net.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

On a sunny day (Mon, 8 May 2017 14:19:06 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd wrote in :

It is not that hard to display a clock dial, but now you need millions of transistors to do that, and lots of power. Even more fun so the display is then often not readable in direct sunlight... The old clock was... More money for a special monitor / display panel. The power they then get from shoes with generators, Winding the watch took less power. It is called 'progress'.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

On a sunny day (Mon, 8 May 2017 20:45:18 +0100) it happened "Kevin Aylward" wrote in :

Randomly fiddling with anything is bad. And with a fiddle it sounds horrible, and will never lead to a number 1 in the charts, not even played via a Marshall amp. I presume you mean Monte Carlo or something. Even then you need some intelligent design to run you stuff on. But.. I am not denying that it is absolutely possible that life formed when accidentally some chemicals interacted in the oceans near a hot vent. that would explain a lot ;-) It is in our genes to tinker...

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

At what offset from carrier are those figures measured ?

Since we are measuring noise, density, what is the measurement bandwidth, ? 1 Hz?

Apparently the carrier power is something like +15 dBm, going -190 dB down from that would be -175 dBm.

The _input_ related thermal noise _density_ for a good amplifier is about -174 dBm/Hz, the _output_ related thermal noise density has been amplified by the power gain. For oscillators, the noise floor is often worse.

It appears that those noise figures are quoted at large offsets from the carrier, when the output phase noise density has dropped into the broadband noise density.

Reply to
upsidedown

Thanks to each of you. Looking through my old textbooks, I found very useful formulas in James Carson's book on high frequency amplifiers. These start with the S parameters, and at the end generate the optimized input/output impedances for the active device, which can then be used with e.g., a Smith chart to generate the input/ output matching networks.

Reply to
dakupoto

Carson is an excellent book.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

I think there is software that will input the s-param table and generate lumped equivalents. There is actually an industry that does that, folks like Modelithics.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

Sure, GPS satellites for instance. There were Mossbauer effect experiments done in the '60s that showed gravitational time dilation going from the ground floor of a building up to the roof.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

On a sunny day (Wed, 10 May 2017 10:41:00 -0400) it happened Phil Hobbs wrote in :

Yes, but what is interesting is the _difference_ between those types of clocks (if any). Maybe that data is still available, but I am no mathematician by any means [1]. Would somebody have had a go?

[1] I exit when I see no connection to the physical world. No parallel universes, warpdrives, strings for me.
Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Robert Pound (etal)

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It's too bad he wasn't on the NMR Nobel prize. A extraordinary experimentalist.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

Thanks, I'd forgotten the name. He didn't write a lore book like RW Jones's, by any chance? Getting inside the heads of guys like that is always illuminating.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

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