OK, I know this is contributing to the problem of political posts on these two groups -- but man this one burns:
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NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Why no?
(A) because I like having work as a freelancer, and this will make potential clients shy away from freelancers working for them.
(B) because I like not being an employee, and this will force potential clients to treat me more like an employee and less like a fellow business person.
(C) because if I thought that getting all my work through Kelly Temps were a Good Thing, I'd already be doing it.
Sorry for the aberrant behavior. I'll go back to plonking political posts, now.
--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?
Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Talking about aberrant behaviour, I actually joined the Freelancers' Union a couple of years ago, to get into their health insurance group.
Freelance artists and writers make zilch, and so generally can't afford lawyers, which makes them pretty easy prey. I don't know that this bill is the right answer, but anecdotally the problem seems to have got a lot worse recently.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Solidarity^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Solder forever
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
I understand why they want this law, and I agree it is probably not the best way to fix the problem, but I am not sure I know a better solution. I think the real problem underlying this is that financially shaky start-ups are hiring lots of temporary employees and calling them consultants, but half-expecting not to pay them if the company does not do well. The people taking these jobs have usually been looking for work for a while and see it as better than nothing, so they go along with the charade as presented to the IRS. However, they are not paid as well as consultants which, among other things, makes up for the risk that one might not be paid.
So the big question is: how do you tell the difference between an exploited temporary worker who deserves to have first dibs on a failing firms cash, and a real consulting business person who in effect has extended credit to the client and waits in line with other creditors to have bills paid? I have been doing real consulting for nine years usually with multiple projects and clients at any one time. I am not sure I know of a good way to determine who is really a temporary employee vs. who is a consultant that would not cause a lot of headaches for people like me. Yet clearly, there is a trend of companies trying to cheat the labor laws.
"anorton" fired this volley in news:YMmdnfAJ9MOTdlrSnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.com:
Clear up the question! I require a down-payment on all contracts. It is stated to cover initial material costs and design/manufacturing labor. The contract clearly states that other periodic payments must be in hand by certain dates, or work stops. The customer doesn't get the finished product until 75% of the total amount is paid and cleared. They have only 25% to "play with" upon "acceptance".
The payment schedules are set such that although I may break even if not paid the last 25%, I will never be in arrears on what I owe my vendors and to ME in the form of pay for the work already performed.
A gross margin of 25% is not excessive, and I've not had a customer balk at the agreements yet. Reasonable people are reasonable to deal with. If the customer refuses the terms, I seek other work. I'm still buying supper and paying the mortgage.
I, too, do not like Big Brother getting involved. Once invited in, never leaves.
Got stiffed twice: First time a very long term client slowly got way behind and owed me enough to run my office for over a year. My fault for allowing the accumulation without being paid. My client, principle owner of his firm died suddenly, leaving a widow and 10 year old daughter - died broke with a lot of debts. Since I considered him a FRIEND and he was my very first client I blew off the debt without saying anything. About six months later, his widow showed up in a truck filled with their electronics lab equipment! Asked me if I wanted it, YES OF COURSE!, because she was being offered a few hundred dollars for all of it, and would rather have me get it. Actually, the load was worth more than my outstanding bill. Second time a client just would not pay, although using and receiving revenue from my efforts. So our CFO, simply went to their lobby and announced was there for payment and would leave upon being paid - and said that EVERYTIME anybody came into the lobby. In about 1 1/2 hour, received payment in full.
We try to set up our billing to never be behind more than small claims actions, keeps it low, painless and easily collected.
One client started out by getting 'sloppy' about keeping up with the pay schedules, claiming bookwork etc.So I stopped work, went to the CEO's office and 'talked' with him, until resolved, even charged for my time to do that. After that, never another problem. I bet they're glad they did that, because in the first 5 weeks of working with this client I saved them over $800k real money - they got to cancel a terrible purchase contract and were signing other purchase orders, all which I stopped. Over the course of the next 18 months saved them another $500k, plus tons of 'invisible' dollars.
The thing to remember most about governmental involvement, is that when it comes time for YOU to collect, they change the rules. FICA, for example. etc etc. To really, develop an understanding of attitude towards debtors, simply look at the VA system. I don't know about you, but for someone to actually put their life on the line for my safety, I feel indebted to. And, think it a travesty that that person is getting stiffed on promised payments and worst of all getting stiffed on healthcare for damages done while carrying out duties?!
Legislators straighten out what you've already set up before embarking on setting up something new.
I, too, do not like Big Brother getting involved. Once invited in, never leaves.
Got stiffed twice: First time a very long term client slowly got way behind and owed me enough to run my office for over a year. My fault for allowing the accumulation without being paid. My client, principle owner of his firm died suddenly, leaving a widow and 10 year old daughter - died broke with a lot of debts. Since I considered him a FRIEND and he was my very first client I blew off the debt without saying anything. About six months later, his widow showed up in a truck filled with their electronics lab equipment! Asked me if I wanted it, YES OF COURSE!, because she was being offered a few hundred dollars for all of it, and would rather have me get it. Actually, the load was worth more than my outstanding bill. Second time a client just would not pay, although using and receiving revenue from my efforts. So our CFO, simply went to their lobby and announced was there for payment and would leave upon being paid - and said that EVERYTIME anybody came into the lobby. In about 1 1/2 hour, received payment in full.
We try to set up our billing to never be behind more than small claims actions, keeps it low, painless and easily collected.
One client started out by getting 'sloppy' about keeping up with the pay schedules, claiming bookwork etc.So I stopped work, went to the CEO's office and 'talked' with him, until resolved, even charged for my time to do that. After that, never another problem. I bet they're glad they did that, because in the first 5 weeks of working with this client I saved them over $800k real money - they got to cancel a terrible purchase contract and were signing other purchase orders, all which I stopped. Over the course of the next 18 months saved them another $500k, plus tons of 'invisible' dollars.
The thing to remember most about governmental involvement, is that when it comes time for YOU to collect, they change the rules. FICA, for example. etc etc. To really, develop an understanding of attitude towards debtors, simply look at the VA system. I don't know about you, but for someone to actually put their life on the line for my safety, I feel indebted to. And, think it a travesty that that person is getting stiffed on promised payments and worst of all getting stiffed on healthcare for damages done while carrying out duties?!
Legislators straighten out what you've already set up before embarking on setting up something new. =============================================
At the $100K level you ought to take precautions. At least use an L/C and have a trusted person on the ground. Believe me.
Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Have the client open a purchase order with a payment limit that you can bill against. This isn't perfect, but it at least insures a few people in the firm know you are doing work and significant money will be spent.
The initial meeting to discuss the project is a freebie. Only a lawyer could get away with billing just to talk about doing work.
I rather not see this law passed. It implies somebody could do crappy work and expect to get paid.
Which is ALWAYS what happens when inexperienced chess players (us) play chess with experienced chess players (them). The only way to not lose the game is to have no moves made at all -- ie, zero change. In the Orwellian zeitgeist, all change is bad change.
Another way of visualizing this is: When someone has a 36" c*ck nudging your ass, generally the only direction it goes is deeper.
And I think 36" is a totally conservative estimate....
Almost ALL Federal "acts" do the OPPOSITE of what their title states, and as a side "benefit" do up to 10 times more damage in other non-related areas.
I do a minimum down and progressive payment at specific intervals that are predefined in the contract for my contracting (licensed) business. 1/3 down. 1/3 when the materials hit the job site before work starts, and 1/3 when the system is working (but extras and tweaks may or may not be done). For even larger jobs I usually define a longer more structured progressive payment schedule. It is my understanding however, that some states like the socialist police state of Kalifornia do not allow aggressive payment schedules like mine for contracting. I don't work there. Problem solved.
For machining (which I only do a few small specialty custom areas) I require
100% in advance. I do offer liquidated damages if I do not meet MY deadline that I give the customer when I accept the job. It might be done by this time, but worst case and I have to repair a machine first it will certainly be done by deadline. By putting myself under the gun I really push myself sometimes, and sooner or later I'll have to pay a customer back because I guessed wrong, but I'll learn from it when I do.
I don't think I really need to worry about a freelancer law as I have been a licensed contractor for 18 years and can clearly show I am an independent business, but I can see unions desperately trying to save labor as they watch the financial portion of their power base go to China. With out production in the US the unions have no money to buy power. Who knows what they might succeed in doing through legislation. Look at the dominant (not equal as it should be) control they have over labor in some states. They need either money or legislation to try and stay afloat. The money is going to China no matter what we do.
In fact I think we need to train a generation of accounts, economists, and industrial engineers to find way to revitalize US production or we will be done in the world in 2 generations. (some claim we already are) Just my opinion of course.
... and regardless of your opinion. Those people are right. When the economy is this shitty working is better than not working. Even risking not getting paid is worth it if the alternative is knowing you won't get paid. Be freaking real people. Its bad. Working beats not working. The government trough isn't doing us any favors in improving things either it just keeps people from rejoining the productive side of the economy and improving the financial situation.
I've had half a dozen guys call me up and say they would be willing to do the work I couldn't pay them enough to do a few years ago. (Work I do myself. LOL) When a man swallows his pride like that it shows you just how bad things really area.
I've found that to be the case. Patriot act is one such example.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus
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Almost ALL Federal "acts" do the OPPOSITE of what their title states, and as a side "benefit" do up to 10 times more damage in other non-related areas.
Does the state assembly where it has been proposed qualify as decent?
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After a quick reading it does seem reasonably limited see lines 7-10: 7 2. "INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR" MEANS A SOLE PROPRIETOR WHO IS NOT AN 8 EMPLOYEE AND WHO IS HIRED OR RETAINED BY A CLIENT FOR AN AMOUNT EQUAL TO 9 OR GREATER THAN SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS; BUT SHALL NOT INCLUDE A 10 CONSTRUCTION CONTRACTOR. so not for people that have a CFO to camp out in the lobby demanding pay...and government involvement is the use of the labor department to recuperate payment, instead of heading out to court. 26 2. THE COMMISSIONER SHALL INVESTIGATE AND ATTEMPT TO ADJUST EQUITABLY 27 CONTROVERSIES BETWEEN CLIENTS AND INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS RELATING TO 28 THIS SECTION.I see no requirements for more documentation than a simple contract, so freelancers are still easier for the company. and easier remedies are made available for the freelancer starting out until they get to the point they will be hiring others to assist and become a small business themselves.-- Stephen B.
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