Energy in a permanent magnet question

So when you start with the nail away from the magnet you have put work into the system.

It really is so why is it so hard to see that the force of the magnet is quite similar to gravity? If you move the jar up & down all day your arm will get tired because it is doing all the work. Depending on the height of the jar has more or less potential energy. So putting the nail on a distance from a magnet gives it potential energy which decreases as it gets closer to the magnet.

The fields outside the magnet are different but the magnet is still the same.

"One that precipitates a process or event, especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences."

You can always drag a more complicated model into a discussion but does that help clarify things?

Its usefull to group magnets together. But tell me: does the energy stored in a permanent magnet change when something is stuck to it or not? That is was this discussion is about.

I say it does not because it would mean the magnet would de-magnetize which the material would not allow.

The tin foil hat people often believe that a magnet is an infinite source of energy or has many other magical properties. For those people to understand you have to dumb things down a lot :-)

IMHO my statement is still true: the magnet itself doesn't change (inside). It provides the same magnetic field strength only the field 'lines' outside the magnet change shape (which I never disputed!).

Sorry, I'm too used to dumbing things down for the over-unity folks :-)

There may be batteries hidden in the mechanism. It is not really = producing=20 significant power, so even coin cells will work. There are other=20 demonstrations where a fair amount of power is actually produced,=20 "apparently" from an unknown source which the perpetrators call quantum=20 fields and other catchy names. There is almost always some sort of=20 "specially modified" coil that somehow extracts this "free" energy. Some = of=20 the related videos in the link above are "impressive", but of course = there=20 must be something that cannot be seen.

There was one video I saw a while ago where somebody had a generator = powered=20 by a 100 watt motor, and he had three lamps connected to the output. He=20 measured the resistance to be about 10 ohms, and then when he ran it, he =

read about 100 volts and the bulbs lit up bright, and he said that Ohm's = law=20 proves that he is getting E^2/R or 1000 watts out. But he neglected to = read=20 the current, which would have showed that the incandescent lamps were = more=20 like 100 ohms when lit. THAT one was easy to debunk.

Paul=20

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The coin cells would light the leds maybe but I doubt they would have enough current to provide torque for that contraption. Maybe I suppose for a few seconds of the video. Has to be something.

Hardy

U am getting the impression that magnetic fields are poorly understood even now. Here we have a scientific paper which talks of the energy in the magnet and yet you claim there is no energy there at all. Simply cannot be the case if it does work in pulling the nail.

Somebody else says that the energy is still there after many nails are attracted but the external field changes. If that were the case, where is the energy coming from - it should be used up. When you pull off the nails the magnet is back to full strength. I wonder if anybody has does a simple experiment of mechanically pulling the nails on and off at a fast rate for several hours or days and seeing how the field changes (if at all) in the permanent magnet. Compare before and after. You could measure the force excerted perhaps and see if that reduces.

Hardy

ct

First, have you seen the documentary found here, http://www.energy-ingenuit= y.com/id37.html It show how the Poles are used for generating AC and while after current is taken, torque can be generated in this one device. It also shows a different process of causing induction.

Second, it has been published that "the Poles swap on the Sun every 11 years and the cycle is completed every 22 years". No cause is given for this effect! Look at the documentary and you may see the cause and the effect that is reffered to on the Sun!

Third, after you see this FREE documentary, you tell me what is going on. I claim that both torque and current can be generated with one device using Mangets. US patent #7531930, Energy Producing Magnetic Converter and US patent pending #...

Forth, they don't just give you a Patent on anything, it has to work!

Last of all, you can see that this other part of a Magnet has been isolated from the Poles and that it relates to everything. Where does this energy really come from? Is it really the Magnet or in the air and in space?

Steve

So,...where does the energy go when a black hole dies? ...after sucking in all that material/energy?

apples oranges gravity field is monopole, magnetic field is not.

So,...where does the energy go when a black hole dies? ...after sucking in all that material/energy? ====================================== Up the Easter Bunny's arse, of course.

I reckon it's just a flywheel. and all those metal slugs are just metal slugs and not magnets at all, and the LEDs are probably battery powered.

Close inspection of the video reveals that the machine is slowing down

when he spins it up frame 4484 to frame 4530 I count 17 full rotations in 46 frames

shortly after after he "engages the magnet rings"

frame 4923 to frame 4983 I count 17.2 rotations in 50 frames it's slowed down a bit.

near the end of the video

frame 7403 to frame 7465 I count 16.8 rotations in 62 frames

that thing has good bearings, but it's not perpetual motion.

Right. Energy stored is stored in the AIR around the magnet, or in the gap of an inductor, not in the material itself.

Just as the energy of an inductor is stored in the gap, the energy of the magnet is stored outside the magnet in the AIR.

All ferromagnetic material does is 'allow' the transfer of the magnetic field through it, very easily.

In a permanent magnet, all the poles align and then resist any force to return them back to a random pattern. And as you know force with NO motion is NOT energy. To conceive that there is little energy inside the magnet, consider: place a keeper on the magnet and it remains magnetized with less tendency to demagnitize. When originally making the magnet, there was very little force required to align the poles and therefore there is very little energy internally stored in the magnet. In other words, there is little energy INSIDE the magnet.

Depends where you live. In Europe apples fall down, in Australia apples fall upwards. This is easy to visualize on a globus.

w.

A superconductive magnet can quench; I've seen it happen. It blows a lot of cold helium out the vent, makes a little fog. It doesn't damage the magnet. You've got to call the guy to come back and recharge it. Nobody would make or buy hundred kilobuck, or even magabuck, magnet that destroyed itself when it quenched. Some superconductive magnets do destroy themselves from mechanical stresses.

In a particle accelerator tunnel or other enclosed space, the helium could push the oxygen away and be a health hazard. They usually have sensors and alarms for that.

So there's no magnetic field inside a magnet?

Do they have apples in Australia?

Samey samey. The field inside the magnet is continuous with the field outside. Zero the field outside and the internal field drops to zero at the surface.

John's example of coating the thing in ideal mu-metal (I specify ideal, because normal stuff will saturate easily in most constructions one might imagine) will force the external field to zero (assuming mu_r --> infty), while carrying all the flux around the magnet. External energy, obviously, is minimized (it's perfectly shielded!). What about internal energy?

If we go back to the circuit model, we can look at the magnet as a source of ampere-turns (MMF). But the magnet's permeability is approximately 1 (typical of most hard alloys), so it also has considerable reluctance. In effect, the magnetic "voltage source" has a source "impedance". The ideal mu-metal covering has zero reluctance, so there is no MMF lost across it. As a result, the MMF drops across the reluctance of the magnet itself. Which actually increases the B field inside the magnet, and thus although the external energy is reduced, the internal energy rises. By how much depends on the effective volume of air an isolated magnet magnetizes.

Tim

Into a big bang in another universe - I am guessing.