Electric airplane

Kinda like designing an automobile without knowing how to drive? I'm not sure I would like that kind of auto. It would probably look like a Star Trek walking machine.

Actually, I once had someone of a similar idea. I bought part interest in an avionics shop. We were considered opening a branch shop at the local airport with me as the tech. The problem is that I don't fly but can repair avionics, computahs, some instruments, etc. A little marketing research (asking stupid questions of various pilots) convinced me that nobody would trust their airplanes to someone that doesn't have a pilots license and doesn't fly. That should give you a clue for your upcoming credibility challenge.

Yep. The same applies to any industry where safety is more important than functionality. You'll find a similar situation in military, medical, nuclear, and some industrial electronics. If you want it to just work, it's cheap. If you want it totally reliable, tested, blessed, and as near perfect as humanly possible, you gotta pay the price.

Incidentally, the FAA's peak employment was about 54,000 in 2002 and has dropped to about 42,000 in 2007. Needless to say, some things are not getting done or being delayed.

Been there and done that. Boaters and hikers were using GPS receivers while aviation was stuck with Loran C at best. It took a while to get GPS through the TSO maze. There was quite a bit of testing done by the FAA, which then simultaneously certified boxes by Apollo, Morrow, Garmin, and others. When marine GPS receivers included mapping displays, it was about 3 years before they were approved for aviation.

I can see you've never hung out in the lounge at an airport. All you hear are pilots complaining about this and that. The FAA is a favorite target, although various revenue collecting (tax) agencies are a close second. There's also the traditional $100 hamburger:

Incidentally, a typical Dave Clark headset retails for about $250. If you want noise canceling, about $650. The new X11 ENC ANR is about $750. There are cheaper brands with headsets for about $125.

Figure on $60/hr for a Cessna 172 dry, plus about 10 gallons per hour for fuel at about $6/gal. So, a 2 hr joy ride will cost $240 or the cost of a headset. Play with your computer flight simulator for a day, instead of flying, and you've paid for the headset.

$10,000 is cheap for a complete EFIS or glass cockpit control and MFD display system. However, if you're flying a mult-million dollar business jet, it's just spare change. As far as I know, you can't legally install a general purpose computah in an airplane. The RFI would cause havoc to the much of the RF based navigation. I suppose a Tempest qualified laptop might be approved. Incidentally, most small aircraft run on 24VDC, which adds a small obstacle to OTS products.

Yep. There are those. Go to one of the vintage aircraft shows or antique fly-in's and you'll meet lots of them. They fly by the seat of their pants, paper maps, hand-held radio, navigate by the stars or highways, never file a flight plan, and usually several months behind on their hangar rentals. Many of their airplanes are made primarily of borrowed parts, with borrowed tools, and borrowed money. Kinda scary, often unsafe, but also probably the best pilots around. They don't fly the airplane, they wear it like a suit of clothes.

The retro aviation crowd doesn't worry me (much). It's the yuppies with more money than good sense or patience that worry me. They LOVE gadgets in their airplanes. The more gizmos, the better. Too bad they don't spend the time to learn how to use them. I just hate trying to collect from the pilots estate after he trashes the plane because he was too busy fiddling with the knobs and gadgets instead of paying attention to the surroundings and instruments.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann
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Haha..funny read, and gullible old me, I almost thought it was true until I read "Horse Cave, Kentucky." Horses do not live in caves.

Agreed. However, there is something strange going on here, which baffles me to this day. Those folks do like avionics, but if you tell them that the same avions can be had with commoditized PC versus their $9000US model, strangely, they want the $9000 model. They will cite the usual TSO/STC-approval-necessary to justify the cost. I then asked, hypothetically, what would they prefer if FAA approval were not necessary, and they said the $9000 model because of their own safety. I then asked, what would they prefer if, not only were FAA approval not necessary, but God told them that the device was ok and would not fail. A suprisingly large number (essentially all) of them said that they would *still* want the $9000 model. There reason: they actually like the look-and-feel of the $9000 model. They said that there was more to flying than just sitting their and letting a computer do all the work. They want to work the controls and knobs themselves. I asked about the percentage of non-pilots who would become pilots if the cost were brought down by advanced technology. They said

  1. There is no such advanced technology
  2. Even if there were, those people do not count, because they are not "part of general aviation".

We're pratically neighbors. I'm in NW Austin.

If you see skinny guy on 1431 doing 150mph on white VFR-800 in Marble Falls in about 4 hours, that's me. Just got back from shop with new Pilot Road II tires, so I need to break them in. ;)

-Le Chaud Lapin-

Reply to
Le Chaud Lapin

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Reply to
panteltje

Idea I have in mind would look somewhat futuristic. Only thing I can say right now is that, at first sight, it will be really hard to find or hear the propeller. ;)

Well, I will be licensed pilot in few months. I'm a student pilot now. From what I have learned so far, flying is mostly a mental activity, which might explain some of the attitudes I have observed in flight school lounges and online. Motorcyle riding, on other hand, at 125+ mph, sustained, requires a bit more skill. I know a lot of pilots who would not think of trying that. And though I will be licensed, in retrospect, it is not necessary to have a pilot's license to make a well-designed aircraft. There are plenty of people who design machines of high quality that they themselves have never operated, no ever will.

But if you decompose these devices, often the parts are COTS. There was a big push in the late 1960's/1970's for example, to use COTS components. The military, in fact, was one of the biggest proponents. They realized that, while safety is important, the doomsaying was out of line with reality.

Oh I have. The pilot's do complain. But I think their complaints are biased [in favor of pilots of course]. The FAA is actively encouraging the development of Personal Air Vehicle, for example, which has been openly ridiculed multiple times in discussions I had in one such lounge. Part of the problem is that pilots come from all walks of life. Many of them are not engineers or scientists, and only retain basic knowledge of physics, or whatever. Anything that is out of their realm of knowledge, they tend to reject. One day, it was so bad, that owner of the pilot school I was at interrupted them to tell them I was right about a choice of metal that should be used for sub- structure. Obstinate would be gross understatment when characterizing some of these pilots. The owner, however, _did_ have strong understanding of physics.

Yes, it's a cycle, but I'm sorry. I cannot blame the FAA. Part of it is that aviation itself is simply not advanced enough to allow Grandma to take a quick trip cross-country. Low-volume means higher prices, etc. This is not the FAA's fault. They are doing what they can [actively asking scientist and engineers to improve the technology].

You can if it's experimental. Many people have done it. So yes, there are people who are trying to do better. But the problem still exists. What often happens is that someone will take an existing $100,000 plane, and add a $1000 general purpose PC. So the total cost is $101,000. Still too much. A systemic approach is necessary, and the FAA, with their various experimental support programs, has said,

"Look...we do want you to be safe, but we do not want to impede innovation. If you think you can make an ultra-advanced aircraft with ultra-advanced controls, hydraulics, electronics, software, for $50,000 show us. No we not let you fly it over Manhattan, but if you prove that you can do it, we will grease the path as best as we reasonably can for certification."

The problem is that no one is doing it. Only incremental ($100,000 + $1,0000 =3D $101,000) designs are being pursued.

Hmmm...

One of the key criteria of the FAA's advanced experimental aircraft programs is that future pilots, old-and-scruffy or polished-and-yuppie will not look outside the plane at all. Instead they will use virtual, networked cockpits with markups of simulated everything as the way of the future [something you might know a thing or two about]. This is why I have a hard time believing that the FAA is the culprit for slow progress of innovation. They are doing as much as a government organization with their responsibility can be reasonably expected to do in this area.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

Reply to
Le Chaud Lapin

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Well I did ground school in Georgetown not far from you, and I've been in what I guess would be both extremes for small airplane: Old Tomahawk that vibrates "dramatically" on roll-out and new DA-20 with G1000 and other nice fixin's.

Instructor was good, but owner of school is simply great. But being an engineer, I thought ground school a bit shallow on knowledge part, so I decided to slow down and go back through entire curriculum step-by- step so that I can understand what's really going on. This is how I came to suspect that backwash does not cause lift, for example.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

Reply to
Le Chaud Lapin

ents =3D

Not big. I think small is inevitable.

Pehraps the entire design perspective of flight is destined to change dramatically within the next 25 years. One of the things that would happen, if PAV's became successful, is the elimination of mass flight. It is highly inconvenient at present. For example, if I want to take a trip to my friend's place in France, I have to:

  1. Drive from home to Austin Airport.
  2. Wait in Austin hour.
  3. Fly Austin to Houston.
  4. Wait in Houston 3.5 hours.
  5. Fly Houston to Paris, packed like sardine for 11 hours.
  6. Wait at Charles de Gaulle for 1.5 hours.
  7. Take shuttle to Orly for 50 minutes.
  8. Wait 1.5 hours.
  9. Fly Paris to Montpellier.
  10. Wait 20 minutes.
  11. Take train to downtown.
  12. Call my friend to let him know I am in town.
  13. Wait 30 minutes for pick up.
  14. Drive 30 minutes to his house.
  15. Unpack, try to stay awake and be cordial even though it is 3:30 in afternoon because I'm utterly exhausted.
  • Do the entire thing in reverse, not forgetting to pay parking fee in Austin for .

This situation cannot possibly last.

Someone is going to figure out a way to build a safe, efficient, electric-powered single-seat, ultra-long range aircraft to elminate all this hassle. In such an aircraft, I would probably make one stop along the way in Nova Scotia, then fly directly to Montpellier, mostly on hands-off auto-pilot, to my friends house, at which point I would put on my shorts, and dive into swimming pool directly from aircraft which would then proceed to park itself. ;)

-Le Chaud Lapin-

Reply to
Le Chaud Lapin

Data from a recent flight from San Francisco to Chicago on a 767. $24K for fuel 244 seats (close to full)

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Reply to
Hal Murray

Ok, $100 per person. Distance 1850 miles. 18.5 passenger miles per dollar.

3 hours... 4 hours flying time? Ticket price $600... $700? Next?
Reply to
Androcles

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Not 25 years, but with enough thermal lift after the start you may fly a long time:

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It was done in 1998/99 with NiMH batteries, so the altitude mentioned in the text is for that old version. A few years ago a Li-Poly version was built that allows 2000m altitude as stated in the "Technical Data" page.

To fly theoretically unlimited may be this project has some potential, at least there will be no "classic" refueling (only the pilots have to be exchanged and refueled with sleep ;)

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I dont think a RTG would really help, it would be too heavy for the needed output.

Jörg.

Reply to
=?ISO-8859-15?Q?J=F6rg_Schneid

On a sunny day (Sun, 07 Sep 2008 12:10:23 +0200) it happened =?ISO-8859-15?Q?J=F6rg_Schneide?= wrote in :

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Now that you mention it, I did see that one in somne video years ago.

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Interesting, this one uses a 17hp motor, almost the same as the 16hp one.

stated in

exchanged

Yes, you need quite a bit of surface area to collect enough electricity. With the latest state of the art solar cells it may get better.

output.

From

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MHW-RTG Voyager 1 (3), Voyager 2 (3) 390W 7200C 238Pu 39kg So for say 100kg we get 1kW, or a bit more then 1hp. That is too heavy indeed. But perhaps, because of the airflow, efficiency could be better, as the efficiency depends on the temp difference you can create. Flying at some 75 mph will create greate cooling and up the output :-)

In case of upscaling the thing so it can carry 100000 kg, a small nuclear reactor would allow big electric planes:

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7500kg 150kW, 10 years of power :-)

Of course many would be scared that a nuclear reactor would fall on their head, but the fuel cost would be very very low.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

I'd prefer not to have reactors flaying over my head.

Why not reinvent Zepellin? Low fuel consumption, you can also put solar cells over part of its huge body to power it.

Mark

Reply to
TheM

On a sunny day (Sun, 7 Sep 2008 16:32:28 +0200) it happened "TheM" wrote in :

head,

Zeppeling, could be nice, as long as filled with helium, not hydrogen, like the Hindenburg was. But is not Zeppelin a victim of wind and weather? It would take good weather reports and navigation to cross the oceans with one.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Agreed, it is an excellent read, and demonstrative of how anal federal regulators can be. I must point out that Horse Cave is a real town in Kentucky, about 80 miles south of Louisville, where they have so many horses they can't build barns fast enough. Horses *will* live in caves if people put them there.

"Kentucky, Where Men are Men and Women Prefer Horses."

Tom Davidson Richmond, VA (on the other side of the mountain from Kentucky)0

Reply to
tadchem

...or that of an ex-politician on parole...

Tom Davidson Richmond, VA

Reply to
tadchem

exchanged

Pilots? It can be remote controlled from the ground (or even automated). There have been various proposals to have airplanes (or tethered balloons) fly donuts over cities to provide cellular and internet access. The proposals never went anywhere, but LIPO powered airplanes might revive the idea:

Balloon version:

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:45:26 -0700, Le Chaud Lapin wrote: [snip]

Part of the issue is the "cant pull over to the side of the road" mentality when something breaks. The other is just plain old "it's always been done that way" thinking. We fly with 80 year old design tractor magnetos that will fail in 200 hours but never trust a dual electronic system with battery backup. (BTW: if you need bearings for your magneto just take it into NAPA they can tell you what tractor it was used on and all the parts for the overhaul).

For me it's the experimental category and antique. One day I'll have the plane built, though I've been building for years - no time for that either. A Stinson Gullwing is also on the list of "to have" planes.

[snip]

That east piece of 1431 is a nice drive. I'm on the west side off 1980 (past the granite quarry). 35mph through town - cops here love to write tickets :)

--
Joe Chisolm
Marble Falls, TX
Reply to
Joe Chisolm

I bought a set of jugs off a IO-540 from a guy there. Nice airport. You are a brave soul to be flying around in a Tomahawk. I told my instructor I wanted to fly different airplanes. Flew every fixed gear the flight school had on the line. I think it's good to *not* do all your training in 1 make of aircraft. I've got my project hangared at the Llano airport.

A lot of the places the ground school is just enough to get you a passing grade. With the engineer in you, you might want to look at the experimental side of the house. I actually like the building part of it as much as the flying part. I think you might also. Gives you freedom to try new ideas. Go to one of the EAA fly-ins and check out the LSA and ultralight areas. That seems to be where a lot of the "pushing the envelope" design ideas occur. Granted, there are a lot of those I would not strap my ass in, but still it's fun to see what others are thinking. For me it's a 4-place composite with a 260hp Lyc sitting out front. Need to get the bigger workshop built so I can start on it again after this move from Phx.

--
Joe Chisolm
Marble Falls, TX
Reply to
Joe Chisolm

exchanged

Yes, Mr. Piccard trys to fly around the world in a manned solar powered plane. This article describes the motivation behind the project:

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I have heared about this kind of application. But I think even satellites will be the more reliable and more cost effective technology. The SolarImpulse plane will have a wing span of 61m at a weight of 1.5t and therefore will be a bit fragile and it will be slow. So you need permanent forecast and planning to avoid bad weather conditions to hit the plane. The need to climb during daylight to 8000m and decline to a few 100m during the night, is another disadvantage for a communication platform. Not to mention the arising problems with air traffic control. I can imagine too: With better solar cells (highly efficient _and_ lightweigted) and better Li-Poly cells some of the problems will be solved in a few years, but I don't think there will be such a need for communication bandwitdh that this kind of planes will be used. They may be useful for exploration purposes, research or the like.

The grid-charged e-planes may replace more and more of the recreational use, in 10-20 years they will be ready for shuttle service to int. airports.

Jörg.

Reply to
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_Schneide

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 15:43:47 -0700, Le Chaud Lapin wrote: ...

I'd bet that a lot of that attitude comes from not trusting electronics/ computers/fly-by-wire. They like the mechanical instruments because you can see the mechanisms operate, and if they break, it's obvious. If you've got nothing but an electrical joystick connected to a computer, which then flies the plane, when the computer breaks, you're dead.

Yeah, OK, mechanical linkages can break too, but how many of those failures have you heard of, vs. software crashes? (Hmmmm... kinda gives new meaning to the term "crash". ;-)

Cheers! Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

On Sat, 06 Sep 2008 13:10:26 +0000, Jan Panteltje wrote: ...

So, you get 90 minutes of flight, and have to plug it in and recharge it overnight or so?

Wouldn't it be quicker to just walk? ;-)

Cheers! Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

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