Current Mirror Conundrum

miso a écrit :

No the DC effect will be much less. In Tim's circuit the transistors have way different dissipations and the output transistor at the same time defines the output current and sees the power change which is bad. In a Wilson or enhanced Wilson mirrors, not only the two transistors that define the current both have low VCE and low dissipation, but the one that sees the varying power totally shields the current defining transistors from the power variation, as does the cascode one.

As you note some base current error still remains but that too can easily be dealt with.

--
Thanks,
Fred.
Reply to
Fred Bartoli
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=A0 =A0 ...Jim Thompson

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ide quoted text -

Those models don't account for the heating effect wherein the THOMPSON is no better than the BARE...

Reply to
Fred Bloggs

Tim,

two suggestions:

1)try scaling the two emitter resistors up by a factor of 4 or whatever you can stand in compliance loss...

2) use 2 transistors that are thermally coupled to each other...

Mark

Reply to
Mark

Yes, I see your point about the devices that set the current having their VCE limited. Good observation.

Reply to
miso

All the ones that you list lack emitter resistors, which indicate that the designer was thinking like an IC designer who could count on closely- matched devices that are well coupled thermally.

I'm building from discretes. But it's an interesting idea. I think I'm going to check whether or not the problem is thermal, and if it is check the time constant of the heating. If it is, and the time constant is long enough, I may well leave it. If it isn't, then I strongly suspect that the three-device Wilson (with appropriate emitter resistors) will be more than good enough. I'll check the "Thompson", though.

--
www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

I added emitter resistors for the "quick and dirty throw-together".

I'm puzzled that your "Spice" simulation lied to you. What simulator did you use?

Also, what exactly are you trying to do... make a linear ramp? ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Why not go with an opamp and a p-fet? That would get you accuracy and gigohms of Zout.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Bias an accelerometer.

I'm using LTSpice, and if the effect is thermal then it didn't lie to me at all -- it just neglected thermal dissipation effects. The LTSpice simulation certainly matches my back-of-the-envelope calculation, which is why I was so puzzled from the get-go.

Here's the model:

Version 4 SHEET 1 880 680 WIRE 0 -528 -96 -528 WIRE 160 -528 0 -528 WIRE 320 -528 160 -528 WIRE 160 -496 160 -528 WIRE 320 -496 320 -528 WIRE -96 -432 -96 -528 WIRE 160 -368 160 -416 WIRE 320 -368 320 -416 WIRE 240 -320 224 -320 WIRE 256 -320 240 -320 WIRE -96 -304 -96 -352 WIRE 160 -240 160 -272 WIRE 240 -240 240 -320 WIRE 240 -240 160 -240 WIRE 160 -160 160 -240 WIRE 320 -160 320 -272 WIRE 160 0 160 -80 WIRE 320 0 320 -80 FLAG 320 0 0 FLAG -96 -304 0 FLAG 0 -528 +18V FLAG 160 0 0 SYMBOL pnp 224 -272 R180 SYMATTR InstName Q1 SYMATTR Value 2N3906 SYMBOL pnp 256 -272 M180 SYMATTR InstName Q2 SYMATTR Value 2N3906 SYMBOL res 304 -512 R0 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 49.9 SYMBOL res 144 -512 R0 SYMATTR InstName R2 SYMATTR Value 499 SYMBOL res 144 -176 R0 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMATTR Value 18.2K SYMBOL voltage -96 -448 R0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 WINDOW 39 24 132 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value 18 SYMBOL voltage 320 -176 R0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName V2 SYMATTR Value 5 TEXT 112 96 Left 0 !.dc V2 0 16

--
www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

PSpice reports 31uS for your circuit, so you're probably right, it's thermal.

Do you have room for an OpAmp? ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Probably. I may even have room in the overall design to have an NPN working off of ground, if I can decouple +18V (the accelerometer is AC coupled).

Lots of work, though. (Bitch, moan).

I'm going to look at Mr. Bloggs' LM385 idea, see how it stacks up.

--
www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Must be a typo. The LM385 is a diode, no FB pin.

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

The biggest influences on effective output admittance are the change HFE with temperature and VCB modulation. The OnSemi datasheet for the

3906 shows a typical HFE temperature characteristic of approximately 0.5%/oC at IC=10mA. Assuming a package theta JA of 400oK/W, this makes for a maximum excursion of 65oC or factor of -32% in HFE. Then using HFE=HFEo x ( 1 + VCB/VA), where VA is Early voltage, for the VCB effect, this is another 50% reduction, so the base current increase, or collector current decrease, should be something on the order of (10m/150) x ( 1/0.34-1)=130uA for an effective output admittance of 130uA/16V=8 uS. Looks like it is just on the hairy edge. The risk disappears entirely if you go with a darlington and lose a volt of compliance, or select a PNP with better HFE.
Reply to
Fred Bloggs

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Reply to
Fred Bloggs

Depends on the model. There are at least three different LM385s; 1.2V, 2.5V, and an adjustable. The adjustable version has a feedback pin.

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Reply to
krw

I think your father used a conundrum.

Reply to
John S

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..or select a 3906 with better theta,JA like the PZT3906, but this is $0.19 versus $0.02 in small qty from Mouser. Same calculation yields

5uS for that one.
Reply to
Fred Bloggs

Thanks! And to krw, too.

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

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Reply to
dagmargoodboat

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