I have no idea. It's all content-free personal daily affirmation stuff, so far as I can tell.
Facebook was initially designed as an assortative mating site for Harvard kids.
I have kids on there and there are a few people who used to be on Usenet on there. That last part is fading.
Facebook might have replaced Usenet because of corporate traffic filtering and port blocking. I dunno. Seems ridiculous that something as bandwidth-inefficient as Facebook would be tolerable. I don't surf at work so I don't know.
But in general, people have little or no use for actual information.
No more than the local bar where the geeks (or bikers) hang out would be considered a support forum (for whatever they opt to discuss, there)
Understood. I was *going* to conclude that the "quality" of user probably plays a role in the extent to which "support" is required (wrt the level of familiarity with the topics -- newbies can get by with folks who know where the POWER switch is located! :-/ ).
Along that line, I was thinking that more sophisticated users would tend to need *less* support. But, on second thought, this may not be true. They may need *different* (types of) support and their "problems/issues" may be considerably more challenging -- e.g., asking the Instrument to do something that it *could*, perhaps, do... but may not have originally been INTENDED in the Instrument's design! In that case, someone with first-hand experience doing same *or* intimate knowledge of the Instrument would be needed to advise.
And that's along the lines of my "advertising" comment.
You could *conceivably* use it to announce an upgrade (software). Or, alert vigilant users to a nasty bug that they might want to catch before it screws them over. Folks who aren't actively tracking your "posts" (tweets) have self-selected themselves OUT of that pool.
Exactly. That was my original thinking.
But, I've received some feedback suggesting some folks are grumbling about the format/medium. Turns out, they check their email on their
*phones* and it's really not convenient for viewing certain types of "non text".
So, eliminate those media types? and tell the users to use a real mail client? Extract the attachments and post them on a web site (but, then someone has to own/maintain that site!) using just URL's in the mail messages (I think this is clumsy for folks who are actually interested in the content as it adds another step to the UX).
The big advantage of a mailing list is that you can "run" it (as in "implement it") damn near anywhere! Even *on* a phone, if you want. Web portals require a fixed server, ownership, maintenance, etc. That suggests costs to operate that would encourage sponsorship (censorship?) and advertisement... :<
Back to my "year end" upgrades/discards. Still have another couple of carloads of stuff to get out of here... cripes, I *know* we don't have a basement (nor an attic!), yet the stuff just seems to be without end!!
Keep warm. We harvested the Navel oranges a few days ago (weather turned cold enough to put the fruit at jeopardy). Thankfully (?) a small crop (in terms of NUMBERS). But, they're all *huge* -- at least a pound (500g) each! So, they effectively take up a lot of space regardless...
I've been playing on stack exchange which is user modrated, and strictly problem-solution focussed, so there's little scope for bragging, discussing politics, cycling, cooking, or conspiracy (unless on-topic). they have an electronics forum which seems to have be mostly at the sci.electronics.basics level, although there are some interesting problems.
Uhm, with some luck you might get there what you have been chasing in vain for years... :-).
The quality of our users is typically fairly high, those are people who have been dealing with systems a lot less friendly than ours. Some (many?) of them have no basic networking knowledge so the main obstacle we had initially was until their unit would come online..... Since we started to supply a router with it, prepared such they could have a "quick start" - just plug things and have them running (e.g. the router would assign their device a known IP address, would forward ports it has to forward so whatever server part on the device is running will be accessible from the outside etc.) this problem largely disappeared.
Oh come on, this is a non-issue. If the browser on a phone cannot deal with what is going to be posted on the list then what will they use. Have them use a webmail client if whatever else is not working and be done with it, nobody needs all sorts of formats known to humanity in one place to provide technical support. GIF, JPEG, PDF, text, html - they will be able to view this right away on practically everything, just the amount of swearing it will take will vary between platforms (sometimes dramatically, you should see me using the cheap android tablet I have for bed use....). The rest can go as application/octet-stream, would go this way whatever format you choose anyway.
Whoa, half a ton oranges :D :D (well, kilogram but sounds pretty huge to me :-) ). We had just a few apples this year - the apple trees (here at least) give plenty of apples every other year only. So we left the few apples untouched, some are still on the tree - and they did find some good use:
Grin, Well yesterday morning it was 52 F when the dogs got me up. I went outside in my "sleep ware" and bare feet to pee with them. Then today it was 12 F, blowing and snowy. So go figure. (Seize the day)
I guess I misunderstood your question.
I've also thought about having some kind of online support forum for our products. In the least, I could just make all my various email responses to problems available online. But A much better forum would be something where users could help each other. An email list server or such.
It's not something I know much about. Are you setting something up? What technology are you favoring?
On the plus side significantly better SNR and moderation to keep the whole thing on topic. Experts that have been driven away from Usenet still reside in various specialist forums or mailing lists.
On the minus side you end up with yet another password and userid for each and every forum and you have to remember to go and look at it.
Disadvantage of corporate sponsored ones is that posts criticising defects in their products won't appear or if they do won't last long.
There have to be enough people reading it for it to work at all.
Makes sense. The effort (on your part) to provide that "up front" is probably saved many times over vs. trying to talk them through the process when they have problems.
When they ultimately contact you for an issue, is it something that you can quickly resolve: "Click here, type this in there, then set the detector..." or is it a "problem solving" experience for you, as well?
Agreed. I suspect there is some other motivation for pestering me about this (perhaps trying to drag me back onto the payroll?).
I've declined to take on the work. As a "compromise", decided to put together a summary of OTHER options they have to address their support desires. But, mailing lists are the only "cheap" solution (doesn't require setting up a server or maintaining a portal, etc.).
So, more "corporate involvement". Hence my question re: more direct corporate involvement in that "forum"...
Current implementation is reasonably clever. E.g., I resample JPEG attachments to ensure they're a more manageable size (easier than having to educate everyone who submits them to do this; *or*, reject too many messages because of 10MB JPEG attachments, etc.). This saves the folks who submit them from having to take that deliberate step before posting... (and cuts down on grumbling from folks who have to "pay" to receive huge "irrelevant" pictures).
Yeah, they're pretty big. Lemons were big as well -- 60 pounds off the little 3 ft tree! No idea what we'll do with all the juice when it "grows up"!
Sadly, not cold enough for apples, here. And, the variety that I like is not sold in stores (apparently doesn't travel well).
I'm not sure (legally -- IANAL) you can just unilaterally decide to publish emails from customers (i.e., any "included text") without their consent "after the fact". OTOH, if they are participating in a mailing list *known* to be sharing their comments with others (of which they have no control) that probably sidesteps the issue.
Yes. IME, users see things differently than designers, marketeers, etc. It can also draw traffic to you for very little *direct* cost. And, of course, if you keep an ear to it, give you an idea of what people *want* (instead of creating a new product only to discover no real market, etc.).
I had set up a mailing list service. Basically, just a piece of code that:
- fetches mail from an account (which need not reside on "your" server)
- verifies that the sender is legitimate (so only "members" can post)
- does some gross checks on the content (e.g., profanity, etc.)
- resends the message to the "list" (again, doesn't need "your" server)
(there are several other features that make it a bit more usable than other "OTS" solutions)
IME, mailing lists are a win because they deliver content *to* the user. The user doesn't have to "check to see if anything new has been said" by visiting a web site. The user can chose to archive whatever he wants and *preserve* what's important (to *him*) -- eliding all else. It keeps things on-topic (folks who digress can be censored by other participants ultimately losing access to the resource). Eliminates spam (you can't just "join" the list; the vendor adds you to the list with a "verified purchase" -- obviously only works in certain markets). It's low cost (you don't have to maintain a "web site" -- just a list of email addresses in a TEXT file), can be implemented damn near anywhere (an old PC, on a server, on a smart phone, etc.) and *moved* almost instantly, etc.
In any approach, the *technology* isn;t the problem. Rather, it's "policy" and "control" that tend to be the real issues.
I.e., do *you* (or an agent of yours) want to be an active participant in those discussions? Or, just let it operate on its own? Do you want to exercise control over the *content*? E.g., what if a disgruntled customer starts berating you and your products... do you "shut him up" by disconnecting him from the resource? Or, engage him in a public discussion and hope others see his folly? Or, ignore him altogether and let his comments "speak for HIMSELF"?
My *personal* (not speaking on behalf of any client) belief is you should try to address his comments rationally. Not "giving away the farm" just to make him happy (which then sets a public precedent for others to mimic). And, *hope* your professionalism comes through and is respected by the others reading the exchange.
IME, offering a full refund is a quick way to shut someone up. "Hey, if you don't like the product, we'll buy it back from you and you can find someone else who you *hope* has a better product." Of course, if they
*don't* exercise this option, there is a tacit understanding that they must think your product "worth the money" -- given the alternatives that they have available. And, if they *do* exercise the option and later
*return* to the mailing list (cuz they'd be dropped from the list once you refunded their money!), then it tells others that the choice to opt for the refund turned out to be a *wrong* choice! :>
[Of course, if they take the refund and you never hear from them again, that's also a win for you -- one less "unhappy" customer!]
I'll send you a copy of the summary I've been preparing for client so you can see what options are available and the pros/cons of each approach.
[NB: you'd also have to address "accessibility" issues. E.g., sighted users can more readily avail themselves of indexes, graphical displays of thread structure, etc. OTOH, you can assume the reader already has tools with which they are comfortable for those tasks...]
And there's the problem. Imagine sitting in Outer Podunk on a rickety Internet connection. Now instead of just headers a major barrage of mailing list message bodies floods in that you really don't want right now.
That is exactly what this here user wants :-)
The why would I want all the unwanted stuff downloaded onto my PC in the first place?
Yeah I figured that. I thought it would have to be re-written.. at least the questions and then posted as FAQs.
A list server (email thing) might be the right way. I'm on a few. I guess one problem is activity level. If there is only a little activity then there is not all that much incentive for people to ask questions. (Versus emailing or calling me directly.)
No that's not a problem. I think customer service is one thing we do right. Support, generous return/repair policy, and yeah if you totally don't like it then we'll take it back and sell it to someone else.
Oh wow, thanks but that's not really necessary. I've got no time to try and get this up and running. To be honest I think it would better for me to post a bunch of "how to" videos on the web. That would help ease the "fear factor" that some users may have. And might also be useful for marketing.
We've recently shipped a number of diode laser apparatus to India and I'm waiting for the questions... It's one of our harder experiments. A video showing simple alignment and tuning would certainly forestall a number of problems....AFAICT no on reads the manual. I'd have to clean up some, my optics table looks like a bomb hit it.
Um, don't *fetch* the messages that you suspect have "big payloads". IMAP allows you to examine headers, download the text body *without* also dragging down any attachments, server-side *search* (so you don't need to "see" the entire message to know which ones may be of interest, etc.
Or, don't check that email account (if you are stuck with a POP account). You wouldn't visit that web portal over that sluggish connection, would you?
I had a dialup (19.2K) account when I used to subscribe to freebsd-hackers.
*Hundreds* of messages. I never saw a problem with that.
Note that mailing lists tend to be finer-grained than, e.g., USENET newsgroups. E.g., NetBSD currently supports ~110 mailing lists for that *single* "product" (NetBSD). I.e., if you're interested in just release announcements, you'd *only* subscribe to the -announce mailing list. Over the past 10 years, you would see, on average, 0.2 messages per day. OTOH, if you are interested in tracking changes to the sources, you'd see about 30 daily over that same period. Only interested in bug reports/discussions? Closer to 10 per day.
With an IMAP client, you can skim the message subjects and delete those that you have no interest in *without* ever "downloading" their content.
Great! How often do you check the websites of each of your tool vendors to see if there are problems/updates/new releases of any of the tools that you are using? Or, do you just wait until you have been inconvenienced by a bug before you go looking to see *if* there's a problem?
You wouldn't download that which you don't want to *read* and/or *keep*! What do you do when you visit a forum? You see whatever is there. *If* you want to save it, you have to take extra steps to do so.
The same applies with USENET. You have to download (retrieve message from NNTP server) in order to examine it's content *and* decide if you want to save it or delete it. And, if it's *genuinely* precious, make a point of "Save As File".
You're no worse off with an IMAP mail client than an NNTP news client.
Agreed. Even non-corporate forums tend to have more effective policing, etc.
The UID/credential issue can be automated with many browsers. But, you
*do* need to remember to "go look at it". There is no way that "it" can tap you on the shoulder if something significant has transpired (e.g., auto manufacturers mail recall letters to owners instead of expecting those owners to periodically check a corporate web site!)
Waiting to get bitten by a problem (and *hoping* you can realize that you ARE encountering a problem) is not the way I like to do things! :> Do you hand-verify all of the computations that your spreadsheet performs? It might be handy to get NOTIFIED by someone who has already stumbled on this instead of retroactively LOOKING for such a report after you
*suspect* a problem ("Oh, yeah... that was reported 3 months ago!")
I've seen this also true of independent sites. You're at the mercy of the "entity" controlling the resource. I think it's a reflection of the "corporate maturity/confidence" in how they address public gripes. I.e., a disgruntled customer can gripe in any of several other ways (social media, mouth-to-mouth, blog, etc.). So, running from criticism is a Chicken Little approach, IMO.
Or, the *right* people reading (and responding)! E.g., a low traffic forum/list can be very effective if each question posted receives an ACCURATE reply -- no need for 20 messages if 1 will suffice.
One real issue is forcing folks to search archives and FAQs *before* posting. Answering the same question repeatedly (asked by different people) can jade an otherwise cooperative "forum member". I.e.,
*ding* the querant and reply with "read the FAQ" (etc.). This should serve notice that laziness will get no response and, ultimately, cost them their access to the resource!
With Usenet I don't have to suspect, I know. Because size is listed.
I like properly threaded displays of discussions and the ability to click on only those responses that I want to see. One at a time. Without having to initiate anything else such as a download. Just one click.
No, but I can easily handle Usenet over that connection. Done it many times from the road.
That's because you never had to suffer through situations where the rate gradually negotiated down to 1200bd with frequent interruptions.
Fine grain does not suit me. s.e.design and similar all-in-one formats are just fine. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
Well, I've got POP here.
Essentially never unless there is a problem.
Yup.
I don't want to keep any. On Usenet I read and move on. Nothing is ever stored.
Web forums? All the ones I saw so far are way sub-par compared to Usenet. Most can't even do proper threading to start with.
You can elect to "do your support" via that mechanism, exclusively. I.e., if folks can email, they can email a mailing list just as easily as they can email *you*!
[For some products, "privacy" may be an issue]
I weened clients from telephone contact by simply taking a long time to return phone calls -- but email got answered almost immediately. Saved me the effort of taking and transcribing notes on each phone conversation (to remind clients what was *really* said, not what they later "chose to remember"!).
Exactly. I think "reasonableness" goes a long way when others are eavesdropping on the conversation. It "provides cover" for your final action -- even if it doesn't satisfy the complainant.
You'll still have to deal with the RTFM crowd. Too many people think it easier to "ask/gripe" than take the initiative for themselves.
A tool vendor that I was using many years ago got a little "snippy" with me for complaining about bugs. Being able to quote the page number in *their* manual that presented the example that I was trying to REPLICATE went a long way to shutting them up: "Well, the manual is in error." "Fine. And which one of us is responsible for the manual's accuracy?"
Have you *objectively* looked at the manual to see how well it addresses the needs of that type of user? I recently looked at the "manual" for FreeNAS and was disappointed by the manner it presented the "product". As if the writer hadn't considered the needs of ALL who might reference that document -- just "him/her-self".
Ha! One advantage optics has is that it *requires* you to keep a clear line-of-sight! I can be MUCH more creative in how cluttered
Well it is hard to draw a line but I guess we have both. Obviously more of the kind "click here type in that" of course but sometimes we have had real problems, e.g. one of our units had to work with a sample changer - both had never seen each other prior to delivery. Simple as it is - pulse an output to "change sample", wait for "ready" then go ahead - I had to change the pulse duration so the changer would see it, mine was too short initially (I had made it 1mS or so by assumption, turned out it had to be a lot longer). Took me an hour or so, IIRC I made the pulse duration command line programmable.
Oh if the reasoning is inexplicable from a technical point of view it means they are just not telling you what they actually want, we have all been there already. I guess we all have fallen for that at one moment or another when we were younger...
That is a lot indeed, you can make a lemonade party for the neighbourhood I guess (if there is no such thing like a lemonade party then invent it :D ).
The same is true of IMAP connections: you (to be precise, YOUR MAIL CLIENT) can pull down *just* the headers for WHICHEVER MESSAGES IT OPTS TO EXAMINE (i.e., it can pull down 10 headers and wait before deciding that you might want to ALSO look at the NEXT 10 headers). Or, the BODY text. Or selected attachments, etc.
I suspect this capability is present in all modern MUA's (e.g., in Tbird). As such, you can have 10,000 *new* messages in your inbox -- each of which are 1MB in size (for example) and only have to wait for 10,000
*headers* to be transfered to your mail client. (e.g., consider reading email on a cell phone -- you sure as hell wouldn't want a PROTOCOL that requires the entire message BODY to be transfered -- even if you aren't interested in reading that message!)
E.g., I can configure Tbird to leave *everything* on the server (just like an NNTP connection) and *only* transfer the bodies of the SELECTED (viewed) messages to my PC as I choose to read them. I can further arrange for it to KEEP/DISCARD the downloaded local copy.
This isn't true of things like POP -- which is an all-or-nothing approach.
I.e., you couldn't tell whether you were reading a newsgroup or a mailbox, based on performance and "data available BEFORE you click on a message".
That's exactly what IMAP affords. Click on mailbox (newsgroup) and list of NEW message (headers!) appears. Click on individual email (USENET) message and it's content (BODY) gets fetched.
You can prove this to yourself:
- click on a newsgroup
- wait for list of messages to appear
- unplug network cable
- click on a message (observe news client complain that server is unreachable; no message displayed)
Repeat this for an email account.
Most people configure their email clients to download *everything* -- because they *tend* to want to read everything that has been sent to them. But, this isn't a consequence of "email" but, rather, the way folks tend to *use* it!
If you subscribed to a busy mailing list (or, regularly received mail from folks to whom you were unlikely to reply), you wouldn't configure your mail client to naively download all message bodies, attachments, etc.
I have certain email accounts on which friends/colleagues regularly send me large attachments (upwards of many MB). It would be foolish of me to have those *accounts* (mail clients allow you to configure each account differently) download all their "new content" blindly. Instead, I examine headers and opt to postpone opening messages that I know will be big (i.e., take a fair amount of time to transfer, depending on how I am currently using my conection).
And, as above, you would JUST AS EASILY handle an IMAP mail account. (I could probably sit down and COUNT the number of bytes of overhead in each protocol -- but suspect it's "lost in the signal")
Then don't click on any email messages that you see are too large! Or, have attachments. Or, that you don't want to bother reading, NOW.
Which newsgroups do you frequent for SUPPORT on PRODUCTS that you have purchased? Note, I didn't ask which BARS you frequent to discuss . Or, chat rooms. You're confusing places like s.e.d with genuine *support* forums.
Conversely, which newsgroups do your *customers* visit to have problems with YOUR PRODUCTS resolved? Or, to discuss the shortcomings, wish-lists, monitor for update/new-product announcements, etc.?
Chances are, you also have IMAP available. Whether or not you've configured your mail client to *use* it is a different matter. POP is much more limited in capabilities than IMAP (I think POP4 is trying to work-around some of these but suspect that won't be well adopted).
E.g., IMAP supports server-side folders. So, I can "move" all messages from mailing-list-X into a folder (appropriately named) "MailingListX". And, *not* have to transfer them onto my local PC/phone/etc. Likewise, I can choose to delete a message after seeing *just* it's headers (POP can show *just* the headers if the MUA uses "TOP" to reveal just the headers and a "few lines" of the body).
IMAP extends your PC *into* the mail server. POP keeps them separate. (e.g., you can mark messages with various flags in IMAP that have no counterpart under POP; you can *search* a message via IMAP -- without downloading it's body -- which isn't possible under POP; etc.)
Ah, I want to know *before* there is a problem. Especially if I may be victimized by that problem and not aware of it! E.g., "The DRC algorithm is flawed and doesn't report clearance violations". *If* I use that tool, do I have to *manually* verify that everything is correct just so I can *detect* when the tool has failed? (as I haven't been NOTIFIED of this problem -- because I wasn't WATCHING THE FORUM) Do I have to examine the object code produced by my compilers for each line of code that I write so *I* can detect any problems (because I haven't *noticed* them in a forum)?
Do I have to keep checking the web sites for each of my autos, appliances, children's toys, etc. to monitor for safety issues (because the vendors won't PUSH that information *to* me?)
I guess we have different development and living standards. Or, you are supremely qualified to notice bugs before anyone else (and, DULY REPORT them to everyone less fortunate!)
In which case, you have no NEED for a support venue, at all! :>
Same is true of an email account. Unless it's POP (in which case YOU are storing the messages and obliged to manually click on "delete").
As I said, there is no difference between IMAP and NNTP in terms of these capabilities.
You are trying really hard to avoid the question -- the subject of this post. HOW DO YOU GET AND PROVIDE *SUPPORT* FOR THE PRODUCTS THAT YOU USE AND THAT YOU SUPPLY?
If your ONLY product is "service", then "support" boils down to how happy each client is with the response you provided to their latest inquiry.
If you only *use* services, do you never seek opinions from others who've used *that* service? Or, do you just go to your local "bar" and holler: "Anyone here ever hired Joe's Tree removal Service?"
Stay exactly where you are. Stick with POP. Stick with NNTP. Don't ever buy any new products. Don't ever seek out other folks' experience with those products. Don't ever expect folks to share their experiences (good *or* bad) with yours. When you buy a new car, ask the dealer to set up a USENET newsgroup to disseminate information about the vehicle, its safety issues, etc. And, so folks can freely discuss the problems they've encountered with the vehicle, various dealerships, service departments, etc. I'm
*sure* they will oblige you!
[No?]
No one is TELLING you to change. You can stick with an abacus or chalk marks on the sidewalk -- no need to bother with new fangled computers! :>
But, you don't speak for the majority of businesses -- based solely on the number of "support forums" that you can STUMBLE onto. *I'm* asking for businesses that exist in the 21st century, not those clinging to 20th century practices.
To repeat:
HOW DO YOU GET AND PROVIDE *SUPPORT* FOR THE PRODUCTS THAT YOU USE AND THAT YOU SUPPLY?
And, to justify your answer to those of us reading, WHAT ARE THOSE PRODUCTS (so we can judge how effective *we* think those support venues would be if *we* had purchased those products -- from you or from the vendor that you patronize).
OK. So, things that are "unique" to particular applications. Things you (as designer) may not have envisioned *when* you made the design. These are the sorts of things (I suspect) that other users would benefit from "overhearing". I.e., preemptively solve their problem before it results in a "support" call/email.
And, also plant ideas in their heads for other uses to which your device could be applied -- thereby increasing its perceived utility.
Yes. As I said, I expect they just want me back on the payroll so they have an "expert on hand" -- for *other* purposes. Had there been a *genuine* problem with my implementation (or, something that I had "overlooked" like the utility of automatically resampling JPEG attachments) then I would be far more receptive to their "complaint". But, this looks like a smokescreen.
Still, to be fair, I can reply with an "expert" recommendation of other alternatives that *they* can pursue -- if they think the mailing list is ineffective (for whatever "nonsensical?" reason)
I use a lot of lemon juice in my tea. I think I've already consumed more than a quart (~liter) -- a tablespoon (15ml) at a time -- of it in the few weeks since I juiced them!
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