Broadband disrributed impedance matching

Could some electronics guru please help ? I know that distributed impedance matching techniques can be applied to high frequency (100's of MHz to 10's of GHz) narrowband signals. Could the same techniques be extebded to broadband signals in the same frequency range ?

Also, could a filter be thought of as an amplifier? For example a low pass filter with a 3dB cut-off e.g., at

50 MHz is passing all signals upto that frequency with some predetermined gain -- so can this low pass filter be considered an amplifier with the pre- defined gain in that frequency range?

Thanks in advance for your help

Reply to
dakupoto
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Depends what you mean by "distributed impedance matching".

It's possible to transform impedances over a very wide range of frequencies, by using a slowly-tapered transmission line.

In general, no... not unless you want to confuse things.

A passive filter always has a gain less than 1... it either absorbs and dissipates, or reflects those frequencies that it doesn't pass, and those that it does pass, always have some loss. A filter can be designed in a way such that its output voltage is greater than its input voltage, but only at the expense of the current being reduced by at least that same factor. Or, vice versa - you can get more current out of a filter than you put in, but you'll necessarily get less voltage. Both of these are simply forms of impedance transformation, and no power is added to the signal.

Now, many devices that we informally call "filters" do *contain* an amplifer, and deliver a power gain of >1 at some of their passband frequencies. The two functions may be intertwined (e.g. you may have an op amp, with filtering taking place in the feedback loop, but you'll have to have *some* amplifying element present, if the overall "filter" is going to have a power gain of >1 at any frequency.

Reply to
Dave Platt

It's not the same technique, but non-1:1 transmission line transformers can do wide-band impedance matching.

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shows an example of 4:1 impedance matching transmission line transformer.

Matick R.E. "Transmission-line pulse transformers - theory and application" Proceedings of the IEEE vol.56, pages 47-62 (1968) goes a bit further.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

Resistors and transformers are all that come to my mind. There should be the equivalent of an optical multi-layer dielectric coating, in the transmission line world. (one issue with multilayer things is that they need time for the various reflections to add up at the output... the step response stinks.)

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

Terminators, attenuators, splitters, transformers, and couplers can work over arbitrarily wide bandwidths.

Filters can't have power gain, and always have some amount of loss. A filter can have voltage gain.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

Bill gets the prize for the best answer, the OP gets the prize for the most ambiguous question.

The design direction, and accompanying hand-waving argument that I've been given (via various ARRL publications) is that you make a multi- conductor transmission line assembly that satisfies your matching criteria at 1/4 wavelength, and then wind it around (or stuff it through) a core of ferrite or iron powder or whatever. The thing "looks" like a plain old transformer at low frequencies, and like a transmission line structure at high frequencies.

--
www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

I make transmission-line transformers by winding micro-coax on a high-mu ferrite core. There's only a couple of inches of coax on each one. Risetime is way sub-ns and low frequency pulse response is limited by core saturation. We do 1:1 up to 50 volts and step-up 1:2 to get 100 volt pulses.

Here's a 50 volt pulse.

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Speed is limited by the drivers, not the transformers.

There was no consideration of wavelength here. It's just a transformer with very low leakage inductance.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

I've never made a transmission line transformer. Is there some reason they are "better" than a normal transformer. You don't have nearly the range of turns ratio's as you do with a regular transformer.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

They're supposed to work better in the higher frequency ranges.

--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com 

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Electrical length is the fundamental property: capacitance and inductance are mere approximations.

But that's alright, because as you say, the input risetime is much longer than the electrical length, and even with a 2:1 impedance mismatch (depending on where that stepup is being done; I forget), that only effectively increases your electrical length by the same amount. So, it's a well designed transformer for the application.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC 
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply to
Tim Williams

All transformers are TLTs. It's a fundamental concept, not just an engineering trick!

If all your transformers have had layers with mismatched numbers of turns (and stacks of layers per winding), then the transmission line properties will be rather poor, but you always get the 1st mode behavior. Which gives the LF approximation that is the conventional 1st-order transformer model: Lp, Ls, DCR, LL and Cp.

Simply noting that, if you keep the primary and secondary strands close together throughout their windings, gives you some crude approximation of TLT (as the engineering design concept), and can do very powerful things: like switchmode transformers with fast risetime, minimal turn-on current surge, and approximately zero common mode EMI!

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC 
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply to
Tim Williams

A rock is a transmission line too, just not a very good one. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Direct experience? Articles to refer to? It sounds believable on the surface, but something deeper than hand-waving would be nice.

--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com 

I'm looking for work -- see my website!
Reply to
Tim Wescott

I just fiddled with it until it worked.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

With eqivalent current loss, of course.

Reply to
John S

Hah, that basically is my experience with RF transformers and matching. (Long ago.. I also had some ringing in an interment stage, And that screwed up how the pulse turned off for an RF nmr thing. (the RF guy at princeton, found the ringing....)

JL, if you ever have a web page of "bad circuits" I've got plenty, (fortunately few went to production.)

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

OK I'd need pictures to know how all those went together, Previously we were talking about inductors as transmission lines, I must admit I've only got a low frequency model of an inductor/tranny, All the turns are linked by the same changing magnetic flux and develop an emf on the ends.

Sure, a transformer made with twisted pair looks like a transmission line at high freq.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

I just designed a really good bad circuit. A photodiode cascoded into a microwave MMIC amp. Didn't work. Luckily I had another circuit on the same board, cascode into a fast opamp, and that worked.

I need a web site for all the crazy stuff that I know. I need a web lackey to do the work.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

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Twisted pair is less bulky - particularly if you twist enamelled transforme r wire. It's a bit harder to work out which end of the transmission line is which - I cheated by using green- and red-enamelled wires - and the charac teristic impedance is higher, but the transformers work just as well, up to the high frequency limit set by the length of the transmission line.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

These too?

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--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

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