Achieving low distortion in audio amps

Hi:

My recent experiences purchasing an audio amp afford some points for reflection on the electronics of such.

I purchased a NAD C325BEE amplifier, basically the cheapest 2-channel integrated amp on the market ($399). One might surmise then that I don't accept the idea that amplifiers "sound different" presuming they are of less than some threshold of distortion considered to be "hi-fi" (let's say about 0.1%) and not operating at clipping.

Now I discover that the amp runs very hot when doing nothing. I recorded temperatures on the top cover over the centrally placed heatsinks of about 47C when the front panel power button was off, and up to 52C when operating (but not producing any meaningful output power, so basically idling).

This seriously bugs me. I have a Kyocera A-710 which is twice the power, and it is barely perceptably warm almost always, but particularly when idle. Granted, the Kyocera has two massive sinks on either side of the chassis, with total area probably 2-4 times EACH the area of the single sink in the NAD used for all four output transistors (two for each channel, 4 total all on one sink).

I am worried that the amp was not correctly adjusted for bias when it was made. Another possibility is that it was designed this way.

I posted in rec.audio.high-end:

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"I have personally designed a very high power (480W cont., 650W peak) class-D amp and some single ended motion-control servo amplifiers in the several hundred Watt level. When designed thoughfully, thermal cycling is not a detrimental reliability factor. I'm afraid perhaps the designers erred on the side of greater bias current rather than higher negative feedback and open-loop BW to servo out crossover distortion. While this might make some audiophiles (not myself, I think low distortion can be acheived with low quiescent) happy, it is not ideal from an idle efficiency standpoint. "

To which "BEAR" responded:

BEGIN QUOTE: Secondly, you can not achieve the same results with (as you say) "negative feedback and open-loop BW to servo out crossover distortion" as you can with a higher bias point (there may be exceptions, of course). In general, higher levels of negative fb yield undesireable artifacts in terms of higher order harmonics.

It is certainly a good idea to have a wider than not wide open loop BW, whenever possible. Of course.

Overall better sound comes when each stage in the amplifier is made as linear as possible before applying feedback (if you do at all) and when the details of each stage's operational pros and cons are considered fully. It's not a simple thing, even though there are "standard ways" of designing each stage of an amp. The "standard ways" do not always yield the intended or optimal result.

(Let's ignore for the benefit of this discussion those who would posit that all amplfiers not clipped, and below some threshold of distortion are not audibly different) END QUOTE.

As I implied my limited design experience is more toward motor amps rather than audio. Yet I have read considerable material on the subject over the years. All I really have to go on is the fact that my Kyocera amp is twice the power yet runs extremely cool, and sounds no different than the NAD amp when not at its limits.

What is the view on the fellows assertion that NFB is bad? Even if the THD harmonics are not distributed evenly, what difference does it make if the amp still acheives 0.02% or something like that?

Comments appreciated.

P.S. All this is making me curious to try some experiments sometime, starting with a butt-simple class-B puch pull emitter follower driving a speaker, then followed by an op-amp power booster topology with the op-amp cleaning up the crossover distortion. I wonder if just going that far would be enough to where the distortion is no longer audible.

--
Good day!

________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser&Electronics Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
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Reply to
Chris Carlen
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This argument still is being waged on rec.audio.pro. The golden ears will tell you their expensive amp/preamp/mic/speaker sounds much better than the el cheapo musical instrument version that sells at the local music store. They record all their masterworks at 192Kbits and 24 bits and listen to them on the expensive playback system once before dithering it all down to 128Kbit MP3s to listen to with the windows down with 10 dB music to wind ratio. My experience is that even harmonics sound 'warm' and 'bluesey', odd harmonics sounds 'harsh' and 'raspy'. Walt Jung spent a decade telling us that the garbage coming from first generation opamps was 'Transient Intermodulation Distortion' due to slew rate limiting in the opamp feedback loop. I think you cant hear a couple of percent THD, but you can hear .01% TIM, depending on the test setup, etc. There are test recordings for audibility of certain distortions on rec.audio.pro as I recall....

Reply to
BobG

The ideal situation is go to the store where it was bought and feel how hot the floor model opprates, or ask the store manager. I'll asume it was not bought under the ideal situation, so you have to test it yourself or send it back. I would send it back.

greg

Reply to
GregS

I've always wondered - and maybe this is already done ... Do audio amplifiers ever use feed-forward circuits for harmonic cancellation as some RF amplifiers do? This would reduce or eliminate the need for the common negative feedback configurations.

Frank

Reply to
Frank Raffaeli

TIM was Marshal Leach's "cause". I don't recall Walt Jung getting in on it, but that was a long time ago.

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I have no problem with negative feedback, but the amplifier needs to maintain feedback. Amplifiers that get "stuck" when clipping are running open loop. This is one reason for having power to spare, or perhaps soft clipping. If the amplifier is slew limited, I consider the feedback to be broken, though this is arguable. However, having front end passive filtering and a sufficient slew rate should take slewing induced distortion out of the picture.

The high heat is due to the level of class A biasing in the class AB output stage. If you read Randy Sloane's book, "High Power Audio Amplifier Construction Manual" he is not in favor of heavy class A in the output stage. I did an Amazon search and noticed Douglas Self and Marshall Leach have similar books. I've run into Self's papers doing research. He has an interesting paper discussing distortion in passive components. Sloane's book is very practical. I haven't read the other books.

Reply to
miso

Chris Carlen wrote: [experiencing a new stereo amplifier...]

[and an audiophile newsgroup said feedback bad, more ideal amplifier stages are good]

An audio amp can change its output impedance (and its speaker drive characteristic) according to its output current. This leads to intermodulation, where a high current at 40 Hz into the woofer causes, through output impedance changes, a couple of sidebands on the 2 kHz piccolo solo. Usual testing of amplifiers with single-frequency test signals won't always catch this (your hearing might, by narrow-band sensing, hear the annoying artifact more loudly than the bass fundamental, and those 'percent' distortion figures don't reflect this kind of effect).

Narrow-band amplifiers and low frequency amplifiers don't have these problems, thus the audio situation is arguably 'special'.

So, techniques like feedforward won't generally work; you want a signal-sensitive (distorted) feedback to be the 'correction'. And negative feedback, while a valid technique, has problems due to the inherent phase lags in power transistors (base spreading resistance). Power MOSFETs and vacuum tubes are better than bipolar junction transistors in this ONE respect.

Lots of extra current in the bias of the output transistors can be used, to keep the impedance low (and the heat loss high at zero signal conditions). Since the output impedance of the power transistors is low at high signal currents, keeping the impedance low at low signal conditions acts to make the impedance more constant.

Practically, however, the usual faults of power amplifiers aren't in their modulation distortions, but in their peak-handling and how-do-I-fit-this-into-my-living-room character. If you really care about intermodulation and such, consider biamplification (separate power amplifiers for each speaker element) instead of exotic amplifier redesigns. Me, I want a better remote control.

Reply to
whit3rd

IIRR the Quad 405 used pretty much this approach - rough Class B supplied the power, a resistor bridge pulled off the error signal, and a fast class A ampliifer added in a correction. Seeemed to work pretty well.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen (but in Sydney at the moment).
Reply to
bill.sloman

It sounds as if a class A/B output stage is set up for a fairly high current. The ampliifier may need a high class A bias current, or the pot-twiddler at the factory may have had a carelss moment.

Checking the temperature against an example in a showroom sounds like a good idea.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen (but in Sydney at the moment)
Reply to
bill.sloman

When I googled on C325BEE I found a review in Dutch that talked about the amplifier as using feed-forward correction, which would presumably take the same form as the old Quad 405 which I've referred to elsewhere in this thread. The Quad 405 design patents would have expired by now - the unit was introduced before 1978

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so NAD would be free to copy it.

This approach does call for a fairly healthy Class A amplifier to fill in the bits that the Class B amplifer can't source, and the quiescent dissipation would be correspondingly high.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen (but in Sydney at the moment)
Reply to
bill.sloman

Too bad they don't specify idle power consumption in the specs.

I'm going to try sending a question to NAD support, posting in another audio group about the temperature, and seeing how much it would cost to buy the service manual for this thingy.

Here's an interesting question:

Assuming one had access to the bias adjustment pot of a typical modern class AB amp, what would happen to the amps performance if it were simply turned down a notch or two?

I know this question is probably impossible to answer without having much more intimate knowledge of the circuitry than we have at present.

Oh well.

Thanks for input!

--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
crobc@bogus-remove-me.sbcglobal.net
SuSE 9.1 Linux 2.6.5
Reply to
Christopher Carlen

** That is FAR too big a presumption to make.

The Slowman is a champion of the foolish presumption.

** That is ALSO far too big a presumption to make.

Here is the original Quad 405 schem:

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The class A stage operates at a mere 45mA and hence dissipates only 2.3 watts in the transistor ( TR7) at idle.

(45mA into 8 ohms = 360mV = more than enough to " fill in " the missing crossover region of the output pair.)

All Quad "Current Dumping" power amps all run with LESS idle dissipation than the vast majority of comparable class AB designs.

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

So list a couple of alternatives.

Yep. On account of most of them turn out to be not so foolish after all.

That is a pretty horrible circuit diagram. The Peter Walker leter in Wireles Word includes a much clearer schematic.

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and enough discussion to make it a lot easier to follow what is going on.

That is what the Quad engineers settled on.

The missing crossover region could be as high as two Vbe drops - closer to 1.3V - if you want to make other foolish presuppositions ....

But I'm hypothesising about a NAD current dumping amplifier - Quad's engineers certainly sounded pretty competent when I interviewed for a job there, and they were competent enough that I didn't get hired. NAD's engineers have looked pretty competent over the years, but they have been designing different sort of amplifiers for production in rather different volumes for rather different markets, with the NAD guys doing the job some thirty years later.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen (but in Sydney at the moment)
Reply to
bill.sloman

** Make no presumptions.

Make only good ones.

** Thankyou.

** Another completely wild presumption.

The Quad 405 et alia actually work as advertised.

Autistic, f****ng idiots never learn - do they ?

** Another completely wild presumption.

Autistic, f****ng idiots never learn - do they ?

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

I wonder why Phil thinks that posting a confirmation that he still thinks that he is right - and absolutely nothing more - is a useful addition to the debate.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen (but in Sydney at the moment)
Reply to
bill.sloman

Even I know that to be not sufficient. As I was just explaining the shape of the class-B push pull waveform to my wife the other night, we agreed that it would be a 1.2-1.4V dead band. She is a physicist with research experience in exotic semiconductor junctions. My kind of girl! :-)

No, they just degenerate into childish, uncivil, and vulgar name calling and obscenity shouting when put in their place.

--
Good day!

________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser&Electronics Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
crcarleRemoveThis@BOGUSsandia.gov
NOTE, delete texts: "RemoveThis" and
"BOGUS" from email address to reply.
Reply to
Chris Carlen

Check out the work of Douglas Self. He has actauly investigated this systematically.

Ian

Reply to
Ian Bell

I have his site bookmarked. Thanks.

--
Good day!

________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser&Electronics Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
crcarleRemoveThis@BOGUSsandia.gov
NOTE, delete texts: "RemoveThis" and
"BOGUS" from email address to reply.
Reply to
Chris Carlen

But a quick peek shows he has some audio bias of his own... his comments about "switching" from "A" to "AB" are as nonsensical as the need for Monster Cable.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

** You know no such damn thing.

** ROTFLMAO !!!!

This posturing ass and his dumb bitch agreed - sooo THAT makes it so !!!!

LOL !!!

** Shame the dopey cow has no clue whatever about real world electronic circuits.

Let alone about the Quad amps.

** You are a nothing but a FUCKING MORON - Carlen.

The Quad current dumping " amps all work exactly as advertised - see if you can figure out where your DUMB as Dog Shit error is.

I give you a hint:

In the term "zero bias" what quantity is zero ??????

........ Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Keeping the thing powered up when off, especially when it uses that much power, sounds like audiofoolery to me. I would not want to own it for the energy bill alone.

Thomas

Reply to
Zak

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