A of E author in alien light signal detection project

Apr 14, 2006 37 Replies

Well, I could comment a bit on gravity waves vs. lasers.

Consider wavelength, and how that limits narrowness of a beam.

If I wanted to be noticed by someone on a planet 30 lightyears away, I would get the biggest Nd:YAG ("YAG") laser that I could get and fire it through a large telescope.

Let's see what happens if I get a 25 megawatt peak pulse YAG laser (1064 nm) and fire it out a telescope whose objective is 3 meters in diameter. I try Google and find 25 MW YAG lasers have been made, and Earth's biggest telescope is about 5 meters last time I checked (long ago).

If I don't have things terribly wrong, good optics can get the beamwidth in radians down to not much more than the ratio of wavelength to objective diameter. With a micrometer and 3 meters, that's 1/3 microradian or a bit more, with cross section of the beam being about 1E-13 steradian. 25 megawatts into this is 2.5E20 watts per steradian.

Maybe that will be weak compared to output from the sun... Let's see...

I am figuring the sun to give us 1380 watts per square meter from

1.497E11 meters away. That's about 3.1E25 watts per steradian...

This does mean that a pulse train fired from a 25 MW peak power YAG laser through a 3 meter telescope will be about 51 dB below the sun's output.

Now, suppose aliens are checking us out with a narrowband filter or having a computer monitor a spectral power distribution of our solar system for patterned spikes? If we are not doing the same, then I think we should! I certainly know that a spectrometer costing only a few thousand $ has resolution down to a few nanometers. It appears to me that not too many megabucks are needed to have a computer-monitored spectrometer with resolution of 1/10 nanometer and checking by the microsecond, and with alerts beeped out and spectral power distribution curves logged if a discernably non-random pattern of a spectral spike is detected. If we are not doing this, I don't think it's much of a waste of taxpayer money to get a few of these up and running to monitor at least parttime the main sequence stars within maybe 30-50 light-years and of spectral class lower or middle F to upper K or so. And I also think it's worthwhile to have a setup or a few firing pulse trains of laser radiation towards such stars.

But back to calculating numbers:

Portion of solar output in a 1 nm wide band at 1064 nm: .048% of 3.1E25 w/sr, which is about 1.5E22 w/sr. I am proposing 2.5E20 w/sr competing against that, which is about 17 dB down.

Now, I will assume that better-achievable high power lasers will have wavelength known to the .1 nm range and that monitoring of a spectral power distribution of "optical band" output of a star system can watch for this. Now we only have to watch for non-random patterns at selected wavelengths to be monitored having patterns 7 dB below the output in same bandwidth from a sun-like star, assuming their capabilities for producing patterned laser bursts are what I mentioned above.

Now for an alternative spectral region to monitor: Radio bands. Possibly it might be worthwhile to see if nuclear explosives get detonated in the outer atmospheres of other planets - for whatever purpose!

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com:

Thankyou. I can see what I was missing now. The beam of a CW laser diverges more, fades over distance more than the sun's light does, and I wasn't taking that into account properly.

I don't know much about extracting signals from noise, but I tried it with sounds. 1KHz pulsed at 1Hz with 50% on-time, against a background of white noise. I could hear it down to -30 dB, but only down to -24dB reliably, which is lower than your -17 dB, so that should work. Shorter pulses would make it harder though. One thing I noticed was that it didn't matter if I filtered the mix or not, it had no effect on my ability to pick out the sine wave, it only made the test a little more comfortable to listen to. :) If anything though, the wideband background provided a better anchor for my perception of the narrowband one than the filtered mix did. Whether that effect would be the same for a mechanical monitor I don't know. It might have been due to a poor quality filter too.

What this leads me to ask is: could it be better to convert light signals to sounds or other representations to let human perception do the filtering, to take advantage of perception we haven't learned to model? Could that work better than doing it entirely by mechanism? I know that this must happen anyway with all measurements, but my point is that science tends to refine as much as possible before human interpretation is allowed, and this might not be the best way. A human can pick out the tune and the harmony in music, even in an instrument low in the sound mix. This is enhanced dramatically in a a two-channel stereo mix. No-one's modelled that and made a machine do it, the results so far have been a joke, so if human perception is allowed to have a greater share of detection, we might get better results.

Don, you can review Paul's take on the numbers at his oseti website.

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One working assumption, IIRC, is the transmitting end employs at least MJ pulses, with a Keck-size telescope (10 meters). This would allow detection to a 1000 light-year range, if the telescope is aimed at us (the transmitted beam would spread out to the orbit of Jupiter). Some calculations in a 1998 paper,

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and a 1999 paper,
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One of Paul's students, Andrew Howard, has used the new all-sky oseti telescope to take a quick look at a few million stars, a factoid he's including in his PhD thesis-defense lecture, Thursday the 18th.

Thanks, - Win

Or, for a sufficiently advanced civilization, its some kid with a laser pointer he bought at the local WalMart.

;-)

Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Yeah, but you\'re taking the universe out of context.

Has anyone noticed that the one frequency where everybody is listineng to -- the water hole -- that it is ILLEGAL to transmit on anywhere in this world.

Many thanks, Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073 Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: don@tinaja.com Please visit my GURU\'s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Hah! But one sobering thing is the power consumption involved. I've read these lasers are no more than 10% efficient. If the laser is fired at a slow rate of 10/sec, that's 10MW of light emitted, and 100MW of continuous power drawn from the AC grid. That's likely to be expensive in any civilization.

Thanks, - Win

Huh? What freq. is that, and can you cite a statute or so?

Thanks, Rich

The "water hole" is from about 1420MHz (Hydrogen spectral line) to

1660MHz (Hydroxl line). I too would like to see the statute that reserves a rather healthy chunk of a useful part of the spectrum.

According to the FCC:

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this band is in the aeronautical and space telemetry and mobile communications allocation. I don't see any thou shalt not trespass designations, anyway.

Keith

That is somewhat aged data. GPS _is_ authorized at ~1.6GHz.

...Jim Thompson

| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Yes, it is a little old (2002), but GPS predates that. I'm surprised GPS isn't in there, or perhaps it's part of "radionavigation"?

Anyway, looking closer (blowing the chart up >200%), there is a line in there from 1651 to 1660 (about the Hydroxyl line noted above) that's listed as "Radio Astronomy, Space Research (passive)".

...and I'll be danged, there is one at 1400-1427MHz too (a little lower than the 1440 Hydrogen line) labeled "Earth Exploration- Satellite(passive), Radio Astronomy, Space Research(passive)".

So, apparently there are legal EMI holes at these "two windows on ET". Too bad Grease won't read this. Now he'll never figure out how to phone home.

Keith

GPS is in there; I presume Jim is referring to this note on page 8: "The NTIA Manual (footnote G126) states that differential GPS stations may be authorized in the 1559-1610 MHz band, but the FCC has not yet addressed this footnote."

Presumably 'may be' is now 'is'.

Tim

Did I really still have that sig?

Ah, I see. Thanks.

Keith

The Garmin chip designs I did maybe 10-12 years ago, were 1.6GHz receivers.

...Jim Thompson

| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Jim,

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Times certainly have changed... I met some Garmin engineers at a job fair a couple of years ago, and they said that -- at least for the handheld receivers -- they no longer do custom chip design but use off-the-shelf parts. I wonder if their aviation division still funds any custom IC designs?

That's odd. It's been less than a year ago that I was called in to debug a processing issue.

However I do know that some companies, for instance Analog Devices, do make general purpose RF chips.

...Jim Thompson

| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Hmm... maybe it was really "handheld GPS receivers we develop at our local plant here." :-) (In particular, their higher-end newer handhelds use the SiRFStar III chipset... see, e.g.,

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.) In another 10 years or so perhaps you can tell us exactly which product it is you worked on!

I didn't know SiRF was supplying the chipsets to others ;-)

...Jim Thompson

| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

He tried, but his home world refused to accept the collect charges on his call.

Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I\'ve got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida

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