433MHz remotes with >500ft range

It is a question of frequency reuse and the difference in population densities.

The radio frequency spectrum is a limited natural recourse and thus as many communication links should be able to use the same frequency. On HF (especially in the 10-20 MHz) range, the reuse factor can be as low as 3 due to the ionospheric propagation (i.e. there can be only 3 independent communication links at a specific frequency globally at similar power levels). On VHF/UHF/SHF the communication range is mainly limited due to geometry to distances of 30-100 km, thus, the global reuse factor is significantly larger.

By limiting the transmitter power, the reuse factor can be much larger, i.e. more devices will fit into the same frequency range.

The free space loss is inversely proportional to the square of distance, while in urban environment, the received power is inversely proportional to the 4th power of distance. Thus, with transmitters and receivers well below the roof line, the propagation distance is quite limited and a large number of SRDs can be used on a single frequency.

In Europe, the population density is high in most of Central Europe, while in the USA, the population densities outside New England and some metropolitan areas is quite low. Thus, a lower frequency reuse would make sense in most of USA (i.e. allowing higher power levels).

I do not want to defend traditional channel exclusive allocation systems, since a frequency range is unused most of the time. It makes much more sense to use some kind of ALE (Automatic Link Establishment) or some frequency agile system (like CDMA) to get the message trough.

I do not know, if the row about using unused UHF TV channels in the USA for other communication has bee solved, but this at least shows the problems of packing as much as possible communication into a limited frequency range.

IMO, radio communication should be used only when it is absolutely necessary (e.g. moving platforms), but as soon as the signal is within a fixed wire/fiber network, the signal should be transferred to the wire, freeing up the radio frequency for other users.

Reply to
Paul Keinanen
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This requires a quite high SNR.

Unless you are using some kind of FHSS/DSSS system, the latency would be quite large due to the need for using interleaving.

Reply to
Paul Keinanen

No, measuring resistances... "Ohm, ohm on the range..."

Tim

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Tim Williams

...Where the Volts and Amps play...

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Michael A. Terrell

You're replying to Dimbulb.

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Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

I'm sure you're aware of this, but for others who might not be... pretty much all contemporary systems that have many transmitters (e.g., cell phone systems) dynamically control their power to at least try to maximize the frequency reuse (or code orthogonality for CDMA systems) available; that alone often gets you upwards of a 10x capacity improvement.

The FCC has ruled on it:

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... although I fully expect there'll be some appeals before it all quiets down.

Where are you located?

In general I agree, although I think that there's enough total bandwidth available that for really low-power/distance transmitters such as Bluetooth/ZigBee/etc., it's OK for people to have, e.g., wireless keyboards and mice even if they are no more than a few feet away from what could be a wired connection instead.

(It's astonishing to think that you can buy a megabit-per-second full-duplex digital radio transmitting at several GHz for the pricely sum of $10 or less these days!)

---Joel

Reply to
Joel Koltner

Joerg,

Any reason you have to use 433MHz?

Sounds like you're using a box that's substantially larger than a "fob"??

Aren't there still lower frequencies allowed for such "signaling"? Or have those all gone bye-bye in the frequency sell-offs? ...Jim Thompson

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Jim Thompson

Out here in the Wild West _this_ is a range:

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Regards, Joerg

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Reply to
Joerg

alone

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Paul is in Finland. The place where they hack a hole in the ice and dive right from the sauna into freezing water :-)

For range. 2.45GHz doesn't give you 500ft sustained unless you really hammer the power into the air. Which is a problem when there's only a coin cell to feed things.

Yes, as I mentioned it's more like half a cell phone, with belt clip and a hard stub antenna sticking out.

There are, but those are all different between countries. Makes for a logistics nightmare.

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Regards, Joerg

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Reply to
Joerg

You don't even want to know what they do in the streets in Alaska, when it's -20F.

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Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

Shame, it should be the place where we put the huge number of criminals which we currently allow to walk the streets.

Mansfield (Shawshank) was 7 X 52 cell tiers. The largest in the country during the years the prison was in use.

We need more prisons. We need better border incursion protection systems, and snipers for those that make their incursion for criminal purpose.

Reply to
I AM THAT I AM

Oh yeah... Surround the new prisons with powerful electric fences. Hell, do the border that way too... the second, inner fence... the one with the "Deadly Force Authorized" signs.

A L T O V O L T A J E !

Reply to
I AM THAT I AM

And you're a goddamned retard. So what is new?

Reply to
I AM THAT I AM

I think it's doable at 10bps @433 I had a friend years ago that did an RF domestic oil tank level meter (UK)and achieved huge range at very low bps.

Reply to
TTman

The top of your desk or your room are quite natural entities to form a cell. However trying to communicate with other devices in a nearby room would certainly be possible using "sufficient" transmitter power levels, which would ruin the frequency reuse in nearby rooms.

For that reason, it makes sense to use low power base stations in each room and connect the base stations together with some wired network. In this way, frequencies can be reused much more effectively. Thus allowing much more devices to coexist in a given space and frequency band, including your next superduper wireless gadget :-).

Many modern devices for unlicensed bands are quite good in handling the congestion. For instance, when new DSSS transmitters are added to an area, each receiver will suffer a small degradation of the signal/noise ratio of the wanted signal. With a large number of new transmitters added, the received (despread) SNR is so low that communication is impossible.

Assuming that you are the first user of band in your area and you succeed in setting up links as long as the (often hilarious) manufacturer claims. Some time later (perhaps next week), when others have installed their systems in your area and frequency band, the SNR gets degraded, your weakest links will drop out now and then and finally the strongest short links work reliably. Thus, you either have to design your network with sufficient SNR margins at the beginning or be prepared to split your network later, when there are other signal sources installed that are reducing the SNR.

Reply to
Paul Keinanen

On a sunny day (Fri, 29 Oct 2010 21:07:44 -0700) it happened I AM THAT I AM wrote in :

You Americanions are all illegally there, the land belongs the injuns.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Sigh. Native Americans are not called 'injuns' and they never claimed to own the land. Your poor European education about America is showing, as usual.

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Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

Jan Panteltje:

But I don't think that they will be chased from there, as the Dutch were chased from Africa, Asia & America.

Reply to
F. Bertolazzi

On a sunny day (Sat, 30 Oct 2010 09:53:09 -0400) it happened "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in :

Me Tarzan, you idiot.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

I'll have to dig up some documents about that. I have read about a guy who did massive autocorrelation and achieved a stunning (and sustained) range. Problem is, we'd need remotes ready-to-go, off theshelf stuff. Nicely packaged and ideally with the batteries already in there :-)

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Regards, Joerg

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Joerg

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