2mV opamp

"could"?

Dude, LARGE form factor, higher power, older legacy dies were more stable from die element to die element.

The tiny stuff now though? Too many minute variables.

It is like a high tension line. The voltage drop at the other end is the same, but the voltage carried determines how much of an effect that loss has on the overall transmission.

The bigger devices... Lets use non-real numbers to illustrate.

The big guys take one mole of material per layer to build, so a whole die of them is X number of moles of material.

Losing a few million or billion molecules of that count will be insignificant.

The small guys though... only take up one ten thousandth of a mole per element layer the number of molecules 'lost' in that die form factor per device has a much more significant effect.

Big or small, using a diode junction for sensing temperature may be very accurate in tracking linearly with temperature change. But there still needs to be a reference point calibrated against so that those numbers shown, tracking that temp change actually come close to real values.

IOW, they all need individual calibration to give accurate data.

They may well all work and track EXACTLY the same, but their starting value will vary.

non-cooled IR Focal Plane Arrays have the same problem, and they need cal from frame to frame to frame to be right.

They use an instrument contained ambient shutter, and look at it, then the scene, then the shutter, then the scene, etc., and they can track accurately better, since the bolometers on the CMOS heat up with the imagery they view as well., and the instrument itself has different "chassis" temperatures from usage to usage. They have to constantly check a reference to offset any shift.

These diodes... think of them as "pixels". Every one of them needs calibration. The FPA has software for it. We have to hand match and cull. That is why there are different accuracy classes for the devices too. Some are just fails from higher tolerance batches.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
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Fuck you, Slotard.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

The temp measurement of a CPU or FPGA needn't be especially accurate. We care if it's 70C or 140C, but not whether it's 138.7. A diode is plenty good enough for most needs, without individual chip cal. Just bypass it pretty well!

I did calibrate a ring oscillator in an FPGA, to make some thermal measurements for an especially picky customer.

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That's actually divided down. The internal ring osc frequency was more like 100 MHz.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

Copper makes a great RTD... very linear.

Stainless steel might be good for an oven. It's not unusual for an oven to be off by 25F or so.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

Den onsdag den 4. februar 2015 kl. 20.37.39 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

:

y.

and almost exactly the same temperature coefficient as platinum

much smaller coefficient

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-Lasse

Reply to
Lasse Langwadt Christensen

It's true that a manufacturer mightn't test nor guarantee such a thing. It is a good assumption nonetheless, because of experimental data, both from earlier threads, and because ten-to-fourteen bit DACs have been relying on transistor matching to this kind of accuracy for decades.

... and that was without immersion in a liquid bath; the immersion measurements were closer

Yep, that comment is useful and correct. The cheap way to get a batch of matched sensor diodes would be for the manufacturer to test 'em in a ( fluorinert?) thermal bath while the wafer is still intact, and if that wafer doesn't have full matching to the required precision, dice and package for transistors instead of thermometers.

You'd never want to do the testing AFTER the parts are on the reel, of course!

Transistors (some types) closely match the ideal-diode equation (part in a million). They only require a single temperature measurement to calibrate.

Reply to
whit3rd

It's 'okay' at low temperatures and low resistances. Corrodes too easily for general use. We used zillions of them for cold junction sensors.

Has much lower temperature coefficient of resistance than most pure metals (like most alloys). I think one of the cheap base metal things is nickel-iron which would be kind of stainless-like (no chromium though).

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward" 
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com 
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

If you use the two-current method you don't need to calibrate for applications like CPU temperature. That's the beauty of it. It's sort of like a band-gap reference but one time-shared transistor rather than matched transistors.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward" 
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com 
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

Most stainless steel doesn't rust because the chromium oxide layer that forms on the surface passivates it.

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You can passivate nickel by forming a protective layer of nickel fluoride, but nickel fluoride is water-soluble.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

Copper is commercially available in high purity, but stainless alloys are only loosely controlled for mechanical properties, wouldn't be easy to standardize. Thermocouple alloys ARE very well controlled, but most of them (manganin for sure) were adopted from low-tempco resistor wire. Hunting for thermal sensitivity in a field full of thermocouple alloys is futile. Except for copper, platinum... which are pure elemental metals.

Pure (unalloyed) metal electrical resistivity is expected to be proportional to absolute temperature. Heike Kamerlingh-Onnes got a bit of a surprise when he tested that theory on mercury, though

Reply to
whit3rd

AFAIK, Manganin is not commonly used in thermocouples. Constantan, yes (types J (iron-Constantan, T (copper-Constantan) and E (Chromel-Constantan). Hmmm .. there are some papers where they've replaced copper with manganin in a type T to make a manganin-constantan T/C.. didn't know that!

Copper (as in real samples) does funny things too (see RRR), but does not ever go superconducting (even at insane pressure and temperatures very close to 0K).

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward" 
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com 
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

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