10 guage for 30 amps?

You better use 10/3; the ground wire will do a better job with imbalanced loads AND AFAIK will pass code. Sure bet that a symple ground rod will NOT pass code (cold water pipe is FAR better..

ipe

Are you in the US?

It's been a while since I reviewed the codes... A separate ground rod on a branch circuit should not pass code (but as with all things NEC, the authority having jurisdiction (i.e., inspector) can "pass" whatever he pleases.). It needs to be the SAME ground as the service entrance (I'm assuming a simple dwelling here, not complex industrial grounding or derived grounding situations.) The purpose of the ground is to guarantee a quick action of the circuit interruption means (i.e., breaker or fuse). If your branch circuits have (or require) GFCI protection, a local ground rod will probably give you a lot of nuisance trips.

In general, it is prohibited to ground a neutral conductor past the service entrance (in most cases, that means breaker panel or meter can). If you do, you can set up a potentially lethal situation if the two grounds are at different potentials and someone shorts themselves across the two "grounds". Remember, the breaker or fuses might not trip if they are referenced to a 2nd, different ground. Also, when lightning strikes, there is a localized fault current flowing in the earth resulting in "grounds" at different potentials. Not good.

On some services, a break in the neutral before the service entrance can prevent a circuit interrupter from operating properly. If you separately grounded a branch circuit, how would you propose keeping this configuration from essentially grounding the whole house if you were to ever lose the neutral-to-ground connection at the service entrance?

Also, for completeness, the code used to say that if you couldn't get

I'd have sprung for a GFCI (or at least an AFCI) given the types of things you might likely be doing/using there. YMMV.

I don't think code will allow it. E.g., it was common practice to run "2 conductor w/ ground" for electric ranges/stoves. Code now requires the addition of the "return" in addition to the "safety ground".

The "safety ground" is intended to carry NO current under normal operation. By contrast, the "return" carries the imbalance between the two legs of the 220 line.

The ground (common) needs to be at the service entrance. I.e., you have to return your ground to that "electrical point". Ground isn't always "ground" :>

Consider if you want/need that to be a "two pole" breaker or if you genuinely want to be able to treat it as two 110V circuits (independently protected). Consider how any "220" appliances (tools, etc) are likely to behave with one leg "missing".

And, think about the GFCI. "The life you save may be your own!" :>

I was worried about the voltage difference between 2 grounds. I'm not doing that. If I ever want 240vac in the shop I'm running a separate 10/3 with ground. 100 feet of that will set me back about $160.00. For the time being I have 10/2 with ground on a 30 amp breaker to the shop with two 20 amp receptacle outlets on the way to plug in two air conditioners.

I can imag> J> > I wired my shop for 120vac using 10/2 with ground from a 30 amp single

Are you in the US?

It's been a while since I reviewed the codes... A separate ground rod on a branch circuit should not pass code (but as with all things NEC, the authority having jurisdiction (i.e., inspector) can "pass" whatever he pleases.). It needs to be the SAME ground as the service entrance (I'm assuming a simple dwelling here, not complex industrial grounding or derived grounding situations.) The purpose of the ground is to guarantee a quick action of the circuit interruption means (i.e., breaker or fuse). If your branch circuits have (or require) GFCI protection, a local ground rod will probably give you a lot of nuisance trips.

In general, it is prohibited to ground a neutral conductor past the service entrance (in most cases, that means breaker panel or meter can). If you do, you can set up a potentially lethal situation if the two grounds are at different potentials and someone shorts themselves across the two "grounds". Remember, the breaker or fuses might not trip if they are referenced to a 2nd, different ground. Also, when lightning strikes, there is a localized fault current flowing in the earth resulting in "grounds" at different potentials. Not good.

On some services, a break in the neutral before the service entrance can prevent a circuit interrupter from operating properly. If you separately grounded a branch circuit, how would you propose keeping this configuration from essentially grounding the whole house if you were to ever lose the neutral-to-ground connection at the service entrance?

Also, for completeness, the code used to say that if you couldn't get

Your brother is wrong, you cannot use the bare ground wire for anything other than a ground wire. It cannot be a current carrying conductor. NEC is very clear about this.

Safe? No, not in any way or shape.

No.

Use 10/3 with ground, use a ganged 30 amp breaker at the house, and you'll have a system that will provide up to 60 amps at 120 volts (using a 'French Ground', which is legitimate.)

Q: is this an attached or unattached garage? If not attached to the building with the breaker, you can have only ONE power feed to the garage, and I'd recommend something bigger than 10 AWG in that case.

Imagine the ground rod was used for the shop "ground" (no ground wire back to the panel). And suppose the ground rod had a near miraculous 10 ohms resistance to earth. And suppose there is a hot-to-ground short. The fault current is a huge 12A. Will that trip the breaker?

Using a ground rod as the neutral conductor is similarly stupid. But you will likely find out when one side goes way above 120V and the other side goes way below 120V.

Really stupid advice from the brother.

I agree with Peter's post.

I assume this is the US. It is a major code and safety violation to put

If a GFCI is needed, it's a *lot* cheaper to run two circuits and use GFCI outlets. 30A GFCIs (and all 240V) are very expensive. The 15/20 A outlets are dirt cheap. They also have the advantage of having the test/reset buttons locally.

Yes, just mark the white wire with a black or red marker. The ground wire is the safety ground. You have no neutral so 120V circuits (or appliances with

Code is fine with it, as long as it's a 240V circuit and not two 120V.

Right, which is why it's OK for a 240V circuit. There is no imbalance.

Ground is always ground. Neutral is not always ground. ;-)

If it's a 240V circuit it must have the poles linked. If not, not.

I'd suggest running it as a 30A 240V circuit, using 10-3 w/G. Then a subpanel can be placed at the far end, to spit the circuit into more circuits, which can be either 120V or 240V. It'll make wiring a lot easier, too.

Depending on the particulars... Avoid panel mounted GFCIs, though.

If three #10 conductors (the two phase legs and the neutral) feed a subpanel, a grounding electrode (which may be a typical ground rod) may me used, provided that this ground rod is connected to the ground bar in the subpanel *AND* the neutral is BONDED to the ground bar. (This is usually a green bonding screw, provided for the purpose, installed in the location specified by the panel manufacturer.)

The panel used in this manner MUST be suitable for service equipment, as effectively this IS a separate service.

My Aunt lived in a very old house in central Cleveland, Ohio.

The house was from the 1920s and had been wired and rewired many times over the years.

In the kitchen was a light switch with a metal cover plate and about 4 feet away was the electric stove.

My Aunt was not a very tall woman and had never had any reason to touch the stove and turn on the light switch.

Visiting my Aunt in the late 1970s, my taller little brother and I were in the kitchen early one morning when he shouted out like he had been shocked.

In deed he was, touching the light switch plate and having his hand on the stove sent 120VAC through his body.

We took apart the light switch and found however wired it had tried to use the cold water pipe under the sink for a return.

The NEC was made up for a reason, please use it so no one else will die from stupid mistakes.

don

PS: he did not die

We *intentionally* used GFCI breakers for all the code-required GFCI circuits.

Retrofitting a GFCI breaker to a circuit that was installed without concern for it (remember, the OP is talking about a new circuit) can be a PITA. You tend to add new circuits at the "bottom" of the panel (unused slots). Often, the grounding point is at the

Once you've *run* the circuit with the assumption that you

A GFCI breaker gives you more freedom of choice in *what* you hang on the line. I.e., you can feed power to a (wall-)switched circuit directly. You can choose from a greater range of receptacles (cosmetics, durability, etc.). E.g., our garage circuit feeds

A GFCI *outlet* requires the outlet to be sited at the point where the feed first branches. This may not be convenient or, may not be a "fixture" that is solely an "outlet" (imagine the first fixture being a switch+single outlet in a duplex outlet form factor).

Outdoor applications of GFCI's will inevitably require the GFCI to be replaced. Personal experience replacing these for friends shows they just don't hold up to the weather, in the long run.

Even indoor GFCI's seem to suffer the effects of constant abuse. They are usually cheaply made (bottom-feeding) and see lots more mechanical stress than a breaker housed in a panel box.

Having the "convenience" of being able to test/reset a GFCI "locally" is a double-edged sword. If a breaker trips, here, I want to know

Buttons seem to *invite* young kids to push them. In addition to the fact that they could interrupt power to something without my knowing it, I'm not fond of encouraging/tempting kids to put their fingers near an outlet.

Cheap 220VAC GFCI *receptacles*???

Going the GFCI outlet route usually makes sense if you aren't adding a branch circuit and have to live with what you've got -- and want to buy a bit of extra protection without lots of extra cost.

OTOH, planning for the GFCI breaker (new branch circuit) doesn't

Compared to the other costs of adding a new branch circuit (*ignoring* labor!), the cost differential of the GFCI breaker gets lost in the noise floor.

Of course, we only have 20A GFCI circuits here (5 of them as the code requires). So, I haven't seen the true pain of *big* GFCI's -- yet. I'll learn that when we install the 50A 220 GFCI circuit for the kiln...

YMMV, of course.

Not a wise thing to do..

Jamie

Doubtless you're spending other people's money.

Why doesn't a pigtail reach? Make it longer. You're inside a junction box.

So? I'd never (well, there's almost always another option) put a GFI breaker in the box. Put it at the point of use.

...and when you trip, or even test, one you have to go all the way to the panel to reset it. I *much* prefer the GFCI near the point of use.

No, you can put two GFCIs on a circuit, each after the branch. I don't recall ever branching a circuit before an outlet, though. That requires a junction box and is sloppy.

Bullshit. Two outlet style GFCIs are still significantly cheaper than one breaker style.

No issues. I just get pissed off at contractors who just use one (three outside receptacles, and three bathrooms!).

You're stretching for excuses.

...and the walk is going to tell you something? You're making up excuses.

So what? They push them and the outlet get DENERGIZED. Again, so what?

Try reading.

No, it makes more sense even in new installations. It's a *LOT* cheaper.

More solutions looking for a problem. You still haven't explained why you can't splice in a junction box.

You're making excuses, again. I'd rather use those $$ on better outlets.

Five of what?

If you're going a run that long, you might invest in 8AWG -- good for ~45A at least in principle, much lower voltage drop at 30A. Even more $$$ though. Plus the conduit and trenching (if buried), but hey, do it right the first time, it's not going to be the cheapest thing in the world but as renovation things it's not a kilobuck, right?

Tim

ALL (repeat: ALL) 220V wiring i have seen use a breaker for each hot line and the arms are physically tied together so if one trips, the other is also switched off.

resistance

ground

That used to be allowed for a separate building, but was eliminated several codes ago. An earthing electrode was required. The N-G bond was required. It is still explicitly grandfathered for existing installations.

A new installation requires a ground wire as part of the feed. The ground wire connects to the subpanel ground bar. An earthing electrode is required to connect to the ground bar. The neutral bar is not bonded to the ground.

minor quibble - A "2-pole" breaker will have an internal trip so both poles open.

Often 2 single pole breakers can be used with a listed handle tie. A trip on one breaker may or may not trip the other breaker. (Not likely used on a 30A circuit.)

A common disconnect, and sometimes common trip, is required for multiple hot wires.

------------------------ Hard to remember what has been said about GFCIs. If a 240V feeder has a GFCI breaker it must be 2-pole and the neutral, if there is one, must go through the breaker. They are spendy. GFCIs on long wire runs are not a good idea. There can be capacitive leakage currents from the hot wire to ground that are larger than neutral to ground that can cause a trip. I would seldom put a GFCI on a feeder. (A pool is likely a branch circuit.)

Yes, that's "code". It isn't cricket to have 120V and 240V outlets on the same circuit(s), either.