Python is a programming language, not an alternative monopolistic software vendor who throws their toys out of the pram when they can't bully and control someone (in this case, they don't like Java because they can't force it to be windows-only - thus they made .net). The point of using Python is that it is a good choice of language for many projects - it is faster and easier to work with for many types of code, as it is higher level, interpreted, dynamically typed, has direct support for constructs such as dictionaries and lists, and has a vast selection of library modules.
If you really insist on using .net, rather than a proper cross-platform toolkit, then look at Iron Python - it is effectively Python#.
Ahh, these are the types or rants that make me lose interest in the 'open source' community. Cant you just talk about the language with out throwing in the 'MS sucks because I don't like them' part. It is completely irrelevant. I don't give a f*ck about MS, nor the fact that they are a monopoly. I give a f*ck about how _I_ can make money, and what tools/languages will make _ME_ money. If using MS tools and languages means I can continue making AU$80-100/ hour, then I will continue using them. ALternatively, If using Python can make me that kind of money on a regular basis, then I will use it. To be honest though, I have never seen a job advertised for python.
Sounds like any other language. What interests me is how robust the language is. I am not a big fan of dynamically types languages, I prefer strongly typed. How does it benefit me, and the business who is paying me to develop there applications?
I don't insist on using .net. I insist on making money. If it cant make me money, then I wont use. What I will do is make a note of it, and probably have a play with it when I have time. That way I can make an informed judgment for myself.
Why? Types are a relic from when programming consisted of smearing bits over hardware. If you program C#, you should be way past fretting over what internal representation things have.
Not that Python lacks types - they just work differently.
Python is I.M.O. very easy to use so you can do more with it in less time (i.e finish the work in one week and then use the next two on to more important jobs such as working out how to kill the armoured guy in FEAR using only the pistol).
In terms of language, Python is object oriented, but you do not have to use objects. There are exceptions, you do not have to use them. In many ways opposite the whip and bondage of Java. PERL and Python are logical opposites, PERL have infinately many ways of doing the same task, in Python the one or two obvious ways is normally the most effective method. (C# is most similar to Python).
Python delivers the cross-platform portability that Java lacks: wxWidgets f.x. (GUI library), behaves native, look native and feels native on windows or Linux (KDE, Fluxbox, Gnome, whatever). I tend to write Python stuff on my windows XP laptop and deploy it to Linux later with no trouble - the only pain was when wxWidgets changed naming standard between versions, there was a skew from Linux to Win XP and my app broke on the move.
Most often Python is used as "thin glue" like the floor-levelling goo one uses before tiling: Making up a sane interface between disparate processes. That's why you do not see it so much "advertised", it's hidden in the infrastructure. Lenovo PC's ship with it for some purpose along that.
The core Python license is very generous: You can build a product with the interpreter and your code and sell it as your product (licenses on add-on's might vary).
Anyway:
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- it's here! It installs/runs on windows (and uninstall even works also).
Use the right tool for the job - I use windows and linux, closed source and open source, according to the requirements. If you read a little further, I'm suggesting you look at the MS-sponsored version of Python running mainly on MS-based .net.
However, before I use a tool, I look at what it is, where it came from, why it exists, and where it is going. When I look at .net, I am not impressed - for my own work, I'd prefer something more open and more flexible, which is going to work now and in the future on many systems. I don't like being at the mercy of a single vendor with a terrible track record if I can avoid it. It might be a different matter if I were paid by the hour for the work I do - people paid to service computers see their unreliability as a benefit.
I don't claim that "MS sucks because I don't like them", I don't like them because they use a variety of illegal and unethical methods to gain control over people and organisations, causing vast financial cost to those people and to the detriment of the quality of software and computers, and destroying healthy competition. I put up with MS software when I have to, and I'll happily give them credit when it is due (windows is not nearly as unreliable as some claim, if it is treated appropriately) - but I'll not choose MS solutions without good reason.
I've told you briefly why I like it. If you want a cost analysis and business case for using it, ask someone selling Python services, or try it out yourself. And no, it is not "like any other language" - but it certainly has similarities to other languages. It is somewhat like Ruby, and has a certain amount of overlap with Perl (although Python is much more readable).
I offered the suggestion of Python in that spirit - look at it yourself, and see what you think.
I am intending to have a look, as I suggested before. In fact, I am going to buy an Mac notebook over the next couple of weeks(when I have time), so that is when I will try it.
However, I can assure you that the chances of me using it on a commercial basis are as good as none. This is not because I think Python is no good, but rather the majority of work in Australia is targeted at MS platforms. Regardless, if I can talk someone around because it reduces development time and increases the benefits for my customers, then I will do so. I doubt this is the case though.
I am going to install it on the Mac which I am hoping to get out today and buy.
In 25 words or less, how do you do GUI design? Is it code driven, or graphical designer driven? Which is the best toolkit to use? Looking at python.org it lookes like i need to use some library, rolled into some design tool/ide + the python translator itself?
If there is one IDE that does the lot, I'd like to know about that.
BTW. Can be linux,OSX or Windows. I dont have Mac yet, but have the other 2.
That shouldn't hold you back, python works great on *all* MS platforms... and linux, and BSD, and solaris, and unix, and hpux, and OSX, and OS/2, and DOS, and QNX, and... I'm sure you get the point, right?
.NET, and C# can't quite make the same claim.
If you check out *any* modern unix like box, you will find lots of the system utilities for configuration, setting up accounts, email, etc are done in python. Those that aren't are probably in sh, perl, or C/C++.
And since python is free for any use, on any platform, trying it out doesn't need to wait for a Mac notebook. It'll run just fine on any old thing.
-Chuck
OBTW, "Python" is named for the comedy troop, Monty Python, not the snake. IIRC, its mascot is the foot crashing out of a cloud and stomping someone.
YuCK! I guess that is what happens when the original founder lets in the unwashed hoards. That logo is based around the snake reference. I read the forward to one of Rossum's books, and it told of the Monty Python linkage, and had the foot from the sky.
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:02:39 GMT, Rich Grise Gave us:
That's not GUI design, idiot. That is development platform utilization.
To answer the question, you would have to also be the author of any "widget" pre-defined code segments.
Otherwise, you're just another wuss using what someone else wrote and calling it your own, simply because you threw a few pieces of their work together.
For the GUI "engine" use wxPython (wxWidgets+Python interface) -
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.
For GUI design I prefer wxGlade - in spite of a bug:
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- easily fixed manually (maybe fixed already?). wxGlade is at
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.
wxGlade generates the GUI code and then one has to hook in the application code manually (which is what I prefer to do anyway). The *excellent* part of wxGlade is that the GUI is saved as an XML-file so it is easy to tweak something with a search & replace in a text editor!
There is also
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which is more "complete" because it can generate code too and organise code in projects e.t.c.. It's quite usable IMO ... but ... it *does* tends to crash occationally. Boa is probably the most all-in-one IDE there is. .
I am not aware of any commercial GUI tools - there is
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for better code integration with windows applications.
Not really - Python code tends to be compact so there is probably not so much pressure for one.
Something based on Eclipse is probably the best bet:
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.
I hate Eclipse myself - it reeks of the process-laden suckiness of Big Corporate Managed IT Systems!
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:35:21 +0100, "Frithiof Andreas Jensen" Gave us:
These "developments" would be more correctly termed "user interface forms development" since the realm in which you operate is already a GUI.
That isn't "GUI" design, it is "forms design".
Not much different than database development. You design a form using widgets so the user can access the underlying application via dialogs, fields to fill in, etc.
I don't understand how it is you folks have come to call using GUI oriented development realms "GUI design" when they did all the work for you, and all you are doing is creating a method to access your application. GUI utilization maybe, but you didn't "design" anything other than a screen form using already existing modules..
The majority of my Python work is targeted at MS platforms. Most of my PC level software is for internal use or specific customers (my work is mainly embedded programming), so it is quite specific. But I have a couple of programs that are for wider distribution, and I expect to have both Mac and Linux versions in the future - using cross-platform tools from the ground up means that change will be far smaller. Even for code that I know will never run on anything but Windows, I will normally write in Python (or sometimes Delphi, or even C, depending on the situation).
If you are writing code for a customer, and the customer chooses the development platform and languages, then you clearly have far less choice. And if they are paying for your time, then you have little incentive to choose a more efficient development platform. Even then, factors such as experience can weigh far more heavily than the benefits of a particular language - it does not help that Python code is typically a tenth of the size of equivalent Java code (according to a statistic I read somewhere) if you don't know what to write!
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:27:28 -0500, Chuck Harris Gave us:
I like doing Nat'l Inst. LabView coding on GPIB, etc. with an HP Network Analyzer or Spectrum Analyzer. Things are moving into USB and even Bluetooth and the like. Pretty easy stuff yielding fantastic results! Great time saver in the lab too.
I spent my day in Arack!
I just made a new engineering joke. Tee Hee Hee! :-]
It's essential a run-time library for the increasing number of applications that use it's features. If you use XP or Vista you will need .NET eventually. It does no harm.
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