advice on selecting new PCB design package

I suppose that "well known" is a bit subjective -- the startup I'm involved in is quite well known to myself and my associates, but I'm sure that's not what you meant. But what does it matter if we are well known or not? The projects I've used gEDA on are more than mission critical -- they are business critical; i.e., if any of these projects were to go badly, the entire company would pretty much immediately be out of business. (Such is life in a startup. Second chances are rare.) And I've got several years of my life invested in this venture, so this is not something I take lightly. Despite this fact, I never seriously considered using anything other than gEDA/pcb. Yes, there is a steep learning curve, but there's a reward at the top of that hill.

The roughest part of gEDA in my experience has been pcb, the board layout component, but it has been progressing in leaps and bounds recently, thanks to the efforts of the developers. Gone is the old klunky Xaw GUI, replaced by a new HID architecture that allows different UIs to be plugged into the core engine, plus a shiny new GUI based on GTK+.

In short, gEDA works for me, and it works well. It runs on my platform of choice, it is stable, it has all the features I need, the file formats are open and easy to manipulate in a text editor or with custom scripts, the price is right, and, most importantly, I know I'll never be at the mercy of the vendor. One thing gEDA does not do very well is hold your hand, but there are a number of tutorials out there that walk you through all the basics. With a little patience (and I do mean a little), you can put all the pieces together yourself. And it's getting easier every day, it seems.

So to answer your challenge -- have you ever bothered to actually learn to use gEDA? Ever designed a board with it? Is there something in particular it can't do that you really need?

--
Randall
Reply to
Randall Nortman
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Gary, Was Tango not ACCEL? I don't recall the particulars but I believe that some called the tool Tango while others just called it ACCEL. One of those confused identity products that I believe had somehow grown or evolved from Tango but some people wouldn't let go of the old name.

-- Sincerely, Brad Velander.

Reply to
Brad Velander

Random Notes:

This is a true statement but please, don't lump Pulsonix in with the rest of the toy software. It is fully a professional-level product and doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath.

Someone mentioned Accel EDA v14. I found a copy of this on the eDonkey network and installed it. Splash page shows a copyright of 1998. Wow, this was some package for 1998! I'm impressed. This copy had the help and libraries ripped out but another download claims to be a full install including a tightly integrated SPECCTRA. I'll download that and give it a spin and maybe update the thread.

Cadstar is at v8 now and it looks to be a peer with PADS as far as high-speed, SI features. There's a copy of v8 and v7 on eDonkey and I'll have a look-see what it's all about.

Worst PCB package I've ever seen is WinBoard/WinDraft from IVEX. Bugs galore, serious ones and annoying ones, that never got fixed or grew worse. When I saw IVEX finally shut its doors a couple of years ago, I thought, "good riddance!"

The only problem with Pulsonix is the owner doesn't market his product worth a crap. This tends to happen when an engineer-type (which I am, no offense intended) runs the show, in my experience. Whenever I've mentioned Pulsonix to some very knowledgeable people, their eyes squint and they say "Pulsonix?" The website looks OK but DIY. Screen shots are fewer now that they were in v3. And default white background for the layout tool? Give me a break. How about a selection of color presets to remind a user of Protel or Orcad Capture? How much work would it friggin take? Just have an intern or high school kid do it. Nice product that continues to improve...too bad.

Reply to
Dax

Dax, Yes I had used ACCEL version 14, however my recollection is that V.14 had a number of weaknesses that were addressed in v.15. All I can remember about is that I was quite pleased with the v.15 improvements and was looking forward to future versions if they kept on path.

Your comments about it being some package, remember this was most closely a limited/junior version of PCAD. Yes it was a pretty good package, I am sure there are those who may disagree but that is mostly personal preferences and what they like/are used to. If I recall correctly, creating SCH library parts was not too intuitive, rather complicated and took a bit of getting used to so that you could properly configure parts for gate or pin swapping. I was sorry to hear that Altium was discontinuing it after they bought PCAD and ACCEL, although it made sense business wise because it could have been too much competition for their Protel tools. By that time i had moved on to another company and wasn't using ACCEL any longer.

If you find ver. 15, it had a very neat tool for documenting your design. You could take a snapshot of your PCB, place it within the database, select layers, change zoom levels, mirror, flip, rotate, etc.. Then you could do say a PCB assembly print with this snapshot window showing you a detail view zoomed up, mirrored, flipped, rotated, to clearly show some complicated or finely detailed area. The best thing is that if you changed the board, the snapshot was live, it was updated to reflect the real board changes. No need to redo the snapshot just because you editted the PCB since creating the initial snapshot.

While I have had my differences with Leon on this group, I have to agree with you 100%. Pulsonix is seemingly suffering from lack of exposure. They do not seem to advertise in the industries #1 trade magazine PCD&M and as far as I know they have never made the trip to the PCB West Design Conference (PCB East Conference have no idea?). Both of those sources would do marvels for their marketing if the product is even half as good as some claim. Name any another source that is specifically marketed straight to PCB designers. The only other one would be IPC Route magazine directed at Designer council membership but I don't believe they take paid advertising. If they sold enough to proffessional PCB designers then they might have enough money to do some real significant development and grab market share because there is a shortage of offerings in the lower - mid end of the tools.

Now that said, if you haven't realized Pulsonix is not a hobbyist or non-proffessional tool. Pulsonix is a low-end to medium level proffessional tool, afterall it starts at approx. $2000 US and goes to over $10K with additional modules and unlimited database elements (pins and layers).

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

"Dax"  wrote in message 
news:1142749109.327225.297020@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Someone mentioned Accel EDA v14. I found a copy of this on the eDonkey
> network and installed it. Splash page shows a copyright of 1998. Wow,
> this was some package for 1998! I\'m impressed. This copy had the help
> and libraries ripped out but another download claims to be a full
> install including a tightly integrated SPECCTRA. I\'ll download that and
> give it a spin and maybe update the thread.
>


> The only problem with Pulsonix is the owner doesn\'t market his product
> worth a crap. This tends to happen when an engineer-type (which I am,
> no offense intended) runs the show, in my experience. Whenever I\'ve
> mentioned Pulsonix to some very knowledgeable people, their eyes squint
> and they say "Pulsonix?"
Reply to
Brad Velander
[deleted]

Pulsonix has a drill hole option - very useful as I often make prototype boards at home. Of course, I sometimes forget and one or two PCB suppliers object to them: Olimex emails a cryptic "No donuts"! PCB-Pool just ignores them.

Leon

Reply to
Leon

Pulsonix sales are handled through distributors in various countries, who also provide support. It's a very configurable package. For instance: the background can be any colour one wants and individual nets can have their own colours. There is a colour setting that allows R, G, B, hue, saturation and luminosity to be selected for various features.

Leon

Reply to
Leon

Leon schrieb:

This is the job of the default color selection box of the widget set used. I'd be more impressed, if the transparency of objects could be configured.

------

--
Kai-Martin Knaak
http://lilalaser.dyndns.org/blog
Reply to
kai-martin knaak

Some snipping......

PCAD is alive and well, PCAD2004 (Version 18 in Accel speak) is the current version, and PCAD2006 will supposedly ship later this year.

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I moderate the user group at:

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Lukas

Reply to
Lukas Louw

Brad, I don't know anything that transpired between '91-'98, I was never familiar with the Tango product. I've always assumed that Tango evolved into Windows PCAD because the old PCAD was DOS. No idea where the name ACCEL came from.

The Windows PCAD was noticably less powerful than the older DOS version, but it has gotten better.

Oh, and come to think of it, ACCEL PCAD was at V12 (not 13) when I started with it in '98.

Gary

Reply to
Gary Crowell / VCP

it in '98.

Here's the splash from ACCEL EDA P-CAD PCB v14.00.46. I guess it's your memory vs. this OEM bitmap.

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Accel EDA v15 is just another name for the P-CAD 2000 product, is it not?

************************************************************************************** Accel EDA v14 P-CAD 2000 (v15) P-CAD 2001 (v16) P-CAD 2002 (v17) P-CAD 2004 (v18)
Reply to
Dax

Never doubted it Lukas, I was strictly speaking of ACCEL (which is what it says on the box in big letters, actually ACCEL EDA to be absolutely complete), which was discontinued in approx. March-May of 2000. About 4 months after Altium bought ACCEL Technologies.

-- Sincerely, Brad Velander.

Reply to
Brad Velander

No Dax, My memory is not that faulty. I was responsible for the software, maintenance, use, standards, upgrades, internal support and library management. Not likely I would forget that it was actually PCAD.

It was a very separate program that just shared some common code with the real PCAD. It has nowhere near the capabilities of PCAD in terms of layers and high end PCB design concerns. Thus I will sometimes describe it as a PCAD Jr.. Simple test, how many PCB copper layers can your downloaded ACCEL software handle, PCAD was greater than 20 layers (I don't recall the precise number). I believe that ACCEL EDA is limited to no more than 8 or 10 layers and 6 seems to be ringing a bell somewhere in my head.

Jeesh, just do a web search for ACCEL EDA or ACCEL Technologies. You will see that there was both ACCEL EDA and PCAD as separate tools.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

"Dax"  wrote in message 
news:1142787872.310391.133240@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> >Oh, and come to think of it, ACCEL PCAD was at V12 (not 13) when I 
> >started with it in \'98.
>
> Here\'s the splash from ACCEL EDA P-CAD PCB v14.00.46. I guess it\'s your
> memory vs. this OEM bitmap.
>
> http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/6219/accelv140kp.jpg
>
> Accel EDA v15 is just another name for the P-CAD 2000 product, is it
> not?
>
**************************************************************************************
> Accel EDA v14
> P-CAD 2000 (v15)
> P-CAD 2001 (v16)
> P-CAD 2002 (v17)
> P-CAD 2004 (v18)
>
Reply to
Brad Velander

Hi Brad,

There is admittedly some confusion about the old Accel software naming conventions:)

In the pre-Protel/Altium days, Accel Technologies had one product, but it was known as Accel EDA, with 2 versions. The full unlimited version was called PCAD, a Windows app, not to be confused with the old DOS Master Designer PCAD. The limited version, with fewer signal layers, a 400 component limitation, and some other feature limitations, most notably only one copper pour allowed, was called Tango, not to be confused with the original DOS Tango. The 2 versions shared the same GUI, identical database structures, etc.

After Protel, now Altium, bought out Accel Technologies, the product is now called PCAD200X, this decade anyways, also with 2 versions, full unlimited and a 2nd, cheaper one with layer and component limitations, no other features compromised.

Confused yet?

Lukas

Reply to
Lukas Louw

The tool currently called PCAD is really Accel with newer features. I remember the switch from Accel to PCAD was pretty seamless.

-a

Reply to
Andy Peters

Hi Leon,

Advanced Circuit's "freedfm.com" site tends to generate many spurious error messages with the drill holes drawn (i.e., donuts are drawn). Their suggestion to avoid this is to just avoid drawing them, so they ignore them as well (when you go to fab).

Reply to
Joel Kolstad

Thanks Andy, Seems like you know exactly what I am talking about if you also did the change to PCAD. Was that back in early 2000, like I reported about my old mates? Yes I would imagine the switch was pretty seemless since I had always considered ACCEL EDA just a junior/limited version of PCAD.

From what you are now saying, maybe Altium was forced to reconsider the orphaning of the ACCEL users and reversed it's decision but not until after they had already convinced my former work mates to upgrade to the full PCAD.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

"Andy Peters"  wrote in message 
news:1142879026.440394.20600@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> The tool currently called PCAD is really Accel with newer features. I
> remember the switch from Accel to PCAD was pretty seamless.
>
> -a
Reply to
Brad Velander

Hi Lukas,

See my comments interspersed.

Yes, yes, everything you say is bang on with my memory except for the name. Don't recall the one copper pour limit, could have been but I would think I would have remembered that because personally I love copper pours, can't do without them. Maybe one per layer? Hold it I have a couple of old boards, let me look. Damn, no external pours but there is at least one internal layer with at least pours, can't see anything else internally so maybe there is only one pour and the othewr internals were planes.

Well your last question is very appropriate. Yes I am confused because my old mates told me that they were forced to update to the full unlimited PCAD or face being orphaned. That came directly from the fellow that took over all responsiblities for the software when I left the company. As I mentioned in the other response to Andy, maybe Altium eventually was forced to reconsider orphaning the ACCEL product but not until after my old mates had already dove into the deep end and upgraded?

Except that at the time I had no confusion with all of the licensing documentation nor technical support who all referenced ACCEL as the package we were using. When I was using it, it may well have been what you referred to as Tango but all my contacts and literature from ACCEL Technologies referred to it as ACCEL EDA. So am I confused or was ACCEL Technologies confused?

Here is what I might surmise. ACCEL Technologies may have wanted to change the product name to ACCEL EDA but was fighting a loosing battle with ole time Tango users that refused to completely give up on the old Tango moniker? Just one possibility consider all that has been exchanged about it in this thread. You will note that Dax's screenshot doesn't say Tango anywhere on it and Andy "seems" to confirm my recollection as well. If Dax's screenshot is from PCAD, which it could possibly be, all things considered, then he will have 20 or more layer capability in the package.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.
Reply to
Brad Velander

ACCEL Tango PCB vs. ACCEL P-CAD PCB from the old Accel website in 1999:

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Nothing about pour limits. Just licensing, components and layers limits.

Index page for snooping around the old Accel website using the Internet Archive Wayback Machine:

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*/
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Some of the PDF brochure links are active into the archive so the old sales lit can be viewed.

Reply to
Dax

"EDA for Dummies" --->

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For comparison, the lowest of the low end. Seems to be popular among the kiddies. Has that Fisher-Price look. Does not come with Play Dough desktop PCB fabrication machine :)

ROFL: "Try DipTrace and you will be surprised! DipTrace is a complete state-of-the-art PCB Design System."

$145 for 500 pins, 2 layer version $595 for unlimited version

Reply to
Dax

"EDA for Dummies" --->

formatting link

For comparison, the lowest of the low end. Seems to be popular among the kiddies. Has that Fisher-Price look. Does not come with Play Dough desktop PCB fabrication machine :)

ROFL: "Try DipTrace and you will be surprised! DipTrace is a complete state-of-the-art PCB Design System."

$145 for 500 pins, 2 layer version $595 for unlimited version

Reply to
Dax

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