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A good idea?

think a little harder about this. If its "not worth the effort" to counterfeit, that must be because its too expensive. Hows that going to affect the price of the original component? Clearly by increasing it.

And dont forget, the counterfeiters dont *have* to make the 4th leg work. remember scam-RAM? no chips at all, just leadframes and plastic, with mobo's jury-rigged to think report a cache.

anything the semiconductor vendor can do, the counterfeiter can *COPY*.

thats the one you talked about:

"I had a thought: Transistors could be made with a fourth lead. This lead would allow a sophisticated (but inexpensive) testers (such as the Atlas) to interrogate devices and ascertain the manufacturer/specs/etc"

what, first you require each (power) transistor to have another leg (that will help reduce the manufacturing cost - not) with some circuitry added to it that enables the device to be ID'd by a fancy tester (note: all fancy testers would need to be replaced/upgraded, and 4-legged transistor packages arent exactly commonplace), and that you later assume wont be counterfeited (why not - too hard? not cheap then), then blatantly assert that it *wont* be expensive? yeah, right.

how is a 4th lead going to help you identify a faulty power transistor that has blown itself to pieces? any additional circuitry would be part of the same die (to minimise cost, wire bonds aint free), so when it fries the ID circuitry will probably fry too. There is more than enough energy in the DC bus caps of even a moderate power amp to totally destroy a power transistor - its only a little piece of funny glass, after all.

Oh, I see, you dont want to have to read a service manual or BOM, you want a fancy toy that does all the work for you.

ROTFLMAO!

Cheers Terry

Reply to
Terry Given
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**Indeed it will. By, potentially, a tiny amount. In the context of expensive, power devices, that cost may represent an insignifant difference.
**Perhaps. Don't forget: Counterfeiters choose VERY cheap materials and chips. They may not be able to effectively clone the 4th leg and the associated electronics.
**Indeed. The inference was that a prospective purchaser could stroll into DSE, Jaycar, wherever, Atlas (or equivalent) tester in hand and verify that the components purchased are what they are purported to be.
**I never suggested that SOME extra cost may be involved. The potential for substantial extra cost is unlikely, however. I certainly agree that low cost devices would not benefit, simply because the cost WOULD be substantially higher.
**Not necessarily.

There is more than enough

**Points:

  • The main purpose of the idea is to allow identification of the non-counterfeit devices.

  • A BOM, service manual is not always available, for various reasons. This is a serious problem in the service world.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Reply to
Trevor Wilson

Trevor Wilson wrote: [snip]

in terms of Si, possibly. In terms of packaging, probably not.

unlikely, unless it utilises some seriously sub-micron geometry or equally esoteric processing. Which will cost a *lot*. And until a large chunk of the market has the necessary modified testers ($$$), copiers dont have to make the 4th leg work, it just has to look sufficiently similar to fool a purchaser at, say, DSE (not much of a task)

there is a serious problem with volumes here. Manufacturers build seriously large numbers of components. Techs repair a small fraction of those components - after all, the electronics is (or ought to be) designed to have a long life. This is where the costs get out of control, viz.:

Say its a $30 BJT, with $1 worth of 4th leg. If only one percent of transistors need replacing, then for every $1 worth of 4th leg circuitry that gets used, $99 *never* gets used as that equipment doesnt fail. No manufacturer will put the more expensive devices into their equipment, as the $1 adds no value *unless* the equipment blows up. Designers go to great lengths to ensure stuff doesnt blow up (at least not until its out of warranty) so it becomes useless expenditure. If no OEMs use the devices, the foundry wont make them. simple economics.

So how do you identify a counterfeit device? performance. If it performs exactly the same, who cares if its not the "real" part. If your suggestion were ever to be adopted (not likely) then the counterfeiters would, faced with a loss of income, counterfeit the 4th leg.

And say you do identify a counterfeit device at DSE, the counterfeiters dont give a shit, they have *already* made their money. So DSE gets upset, and eventually stops buying from that company. So they re-name themselves, and DSE will buy from them once more (hey, they are cheap).

The real solution to counterfeit parts is to purchase from a reputable vendor. And, of course, to cease purchasing on price alone (Deming, Juran, Shewhart, Crosby et al)

very true.

Cheers Terry

Reply to
Terry Given

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