OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

I recall some kind of requirement to be closed one day per week, but I don't know of any "early" rule.

In fact one inn put a breakfast out for me personally when I had a

...Jim Thompson

Hello Chris,

In California, which has the industry exemption :-)

A very regulated turf but at least we now have Arnold who can and will put a lid on the most egregious regulatory intrusions.

The 510(k) approval process isn't so difficult. But wait until you have to go through a full-blown PMA.

Maybe it is changing. When I interviewed a few EEs from the UK in the late 90's none of them had C.Eng. Later I asked one of them what C.Eng meant. He didn't have the foggiest idea. An excellent engineer BTW.

Regards, Joerg

In article , Ray Andraka writes

I have gained a similar opinion of many who knock the C.Eng in the UK

I agree.

Much the same as the UK.... in fact there is a general harmonisation of the requirements world wide between the various regulatory bodies.

A friend of mine, whilst globe trotting for a few years, bought a Phd in Philosophy in a market that in Asia for one of the Indian Universities. A she said who the hell can dispute a Dr of Philosophy in Philosophy from Rangoon? The subject is so orange... Though he never did have the bottle to put it on his CV when applying for work in electronics. :-)

However in the UK they tend to like them as close to your work as possible and it is the same with the interview.

though to be honest the people who say there is no one who can asses me are either The leading expert in the field in which case their work will be well known or else they are making excuses.

In the case of Medical electronics there are plenty of people who could do it. I know quite a few. Unless your particular fields so specialised in which case I am sure you can explain your patents to the interviewing panel

Ouch... it's not that bad in the UK yet.

Is that in Zurich? :-)

Yes. Though there is probably a legal hair to split on Business to business trade as opposed to business to individual people

So perhaps it is time to apply before they raise the bar.

It is the same I believe in aerospace.

I agree.

PE, C.Eng etc is becoming more of a requirement. It will become more so as more embedded SW controls our lives. You only need a couple of high profile SW accidents that cause a lot of loss of life before the blanket regulations suddenly sweep in and you find you have 6 months to get certified or change job.

Ironically as a Chartered Electrical Engineer I am no longer able to do household wiring. You have to be a licensed electrician (it's been the same for domestic Gas fitters for years) .

Hello Ray,

AFAIK (and I may be wrong about that) California requires there be at least four years of work experience after passing FE. They won't let you take the FE, submit your refs and then sit for the final.

My objections are more based on my strong belief that we should strive for an environment with the least amount of regulatory burden. That's what our country was built upon. That does have downsides, for example the lack of a formal apprenticeship program in the trade such as plumbing, construction, electrical and so on. But in EE there is the proof you get with your degree, something many trades folks do not have because they didn't go to any trade school. If there would be hardcore proof that licensure provide tangible benefits that would be different. I have not seen such proof.

As I said, there are many top notch "ivy league" universities in Asia, Europe and other areas that provide excellent education but are not ABET credentialed. These aren't offshore diploma mills. In fact, some are a lot stricter than many of our schools. Making those graduates wait 20 years or shell out tens of thousands of Dollars again is not right and does not benefit the public.

I know you can get the three signatures that way. But this is just the point. While they might be able to judge my ethics they are not able to judge my competence. So what good does it do the public if someone signs off to do me a favor? A civil engineer or even an EE on the power business can say that I talk up a nice prose about electronics. But that is in no way a guarantee that I won't mess up a beamformer design for an ultrasound machine (promise, I won't...).

As I said, I did ask that question a lot. There is no dismissing here at all. What I found was two civil engineers, one designing bridges, the other designing environmental improvements (construction). Then I found one more in power engineering who was thinking about getting a PE. But he hadn't taken the FE after he graduated because nobody had pointed it out to them in those days so he put that whole PE idea on the back burner.

I think I am a friendly guy. Maybe I'll check that out. It can never hurt to network.

It does explicitly include consultants. I believe that was forced into the regs by industry lobbying. We have many small start-ups that rely on consultants and our legislature knows that taking that exemption away would cripple our state and send the already strained state budget into a hard tail spin.

Yes, and legally even you could probably not work there unless you get a license in those states by comity. An RI license won't do you any good in Missouri and so on. Just that requirement to get (and pay for) umpteen licenses is something I find, with all due respect, pretty pathetic.

If a state board would go to the extreme they'd have some class action coming at them and they know that. All one would have to do is point them to Monster.com and make them treat everyone equal. IOW fine or put out of work about half the freelance work force. The political backlash would be tremendous.

Maybe, I haven't followed it in years. One of my PE friend from the construction field told me he had to because he is registered. And it was sometimes financially killing him.

Our licensing authority had been dissolved a few years ago and the Department of Consumer Affairs took over. I know that they require contractors to secure liability and can't imagine they wouldn't require the same of engineers.

I know, I went through all of them. IEEE was the first with a decline to quote. Evanston was the only one with a quote but it was prohibitively expensive and IIRC my insurance agent mentioned they weren't licensed for CA.

Not per California law. The public is private individuals, not industry. And it doesn't say consulting engineer.

Yes, on new plants and installations. But I asked one what he'd do when something needs a mod. "I'll do it and then it gets documented". Maybe it is stamped at some later time but typically it's fired up right away.

Regards, Joerg

Michael, I think you need some serious therapy to root out these self- hatred issues.

It's quite difficult to give oneself "carpal tunnel syndrome" - you really have to work at it for a long time, while ignoring the pain from your wrist. There's an exceedingly simple cure for this - if it hurts, stop.

I've been sitting at a keyboard pretty much all of my waking life for about 30 years, and the only time I ever got a _hint_ of "carpal tunnel" was when I was holding the mouse in a very awkward position - when my wrist said, "This Hurts!" I changed the position of my arm. Voila! No "carpal tunnel syndrome"!

You'll get much better when you learn why you hate yourself so much.

Good Luck! Rich

Maybe you haven't heard of this recent invention: "Reading glasses".

Good Luck! Rich

And, as I've discovered through hard experience, rigidity isn't strength.

Good Luck! Rich

Hello Paul,

Interesting. Then I would already know two (civil engineers). Was that in California?

I just re-checked the application form here in CA. It looks like it's up to four refs now and says "These individuals must be licensed as professional engineers in the discipline for which you are applying". That would rule out my CE friends. Also, it says you must have been "engaged" with them, meaning a work relationship. Well, I never designed any bridges for them ;-)

That would make it all toast I guess. I never worked with any PEs, just with one EIT.

Regards, Joerg

I think he's just so full of false pride that he refuses to go to the drug store and pick up a $10.00 pair of glasses. I have a couple - one for the computer, and one for doing the crossword puzzle in bed. I don't use either on the TeeVee, unless for some reason I need to see some detail, like the football scoreboard. ;-)

Thanks, Rich

Looser than what?

And what's a "loose" culture anyway? One where people aren't oppressed by the authoritarians? In that case, the US is supposed to have the loosest culture there's ever been on the planet! ;-D

Thanks, Rich

or

Ah.. so one of two languages then.. ? :)

When I applied for mine, they wanted 5 references, 3 of which needed to be familiar with my work, and 3 of which had to be registered engineers. As it happened, all 3 were familiar with my work through past engagements, only one was licensed as an EE, the other two were MEs, both working for medical equpment companies I had done work for. In addition, none of the references could be past employees or supervisors (the supervisors were interviewed too). I did note quite a variation between states on the requirements for references. Massachusetts IIRC, at the time I got mine in RI, for example, wanted 5 PE signatures, 3 of which had to licensed in Massachusetts.

You could always call the licensing board and discuss your predicament with them. They are well aware that there are few PEs in manufacturing, and again, I found them to be very helpful navigating the application process, including helping you find your references. I've also been hired to review a candidates background to see if there could be equivalent experience drawn from their coursework and experience (He had a degree from a non-accredited school, and didn't have 20 years experience). What I am saying is, you may be able to work with the board to find an alternative set of requirements drawn from your experience that will satisfy their needs. It doesn't hurt to ask and push a little.

BTW, yes, you generally do need 4 years between the FE exam and your PE. Sounds like a good reason to go and get the FE out of the way. I was fortunate, one of my Undergrad professors encouraged us to go take the EIT even if we thought we'd never use it. I've never regretted taking his advice (this is good advice to all you lurkers here who are finishing up school too).

Where the hell is Slovenia?

Sorry, I know I can look it up, and I'm about to do so, but I just couldn't resist - a very popular bumper sticker in Southern California is "Where the hell is ", like, Montebello, Ramona, Cardiff-by-the-sea, Irvine, that sort of thing. ;-)

Holy Yikes!

How's the beaches there? Do they have naked ladies running around? ;-P

Thanks! Rich

Hello Chris,

Ain't that easy. Explained with link further below. You need to look at the req's of each state. Each state has their own turf.

I've lived in Europe and most countries, such as Germany, do not have any license. So it couldn't possibly be harmonized. They have a "Staatspruefung" but that is more for folks in government and for the engineers who perform the mandatory road worthiness checks on cars.

No. And the refs do have to be from your discipline. Look at page three number 12 in this doc (the application for for California):

Clearly says: "For each engagement claimed as qualifying experience, list the name of a person who will serve as a reference. These individuals should be licensed as Professional Engineers in the discipline for which you are applying. YOU MUST LIST AT LEAST FOUR PERSONS WILLING TO SERVE AS REFERENCES FOR YOU."

So far for making excuses ;-)

The interviewing panel won't see you unless all the requirements on the application are fulfilled. See above. AFAIK they even require the refs to be registered in California where there is exactly one company doing the stuff I am doing. No PEs there and I know those folks personally.

No hair splitting. In CA public is not industry. Industry is not the public. What would be against the rules is if someone would advertise "Engineer will design and realize your new home solar system..." or something like that. 'Home' clearly hints he wants to sell services to the public and that requires a PE. Or in this case at least a contractors license.

It seems to be going the other direction. A few years ago they changed the board from being a separate entity and put it under Consumer Affairs. The applicant numbers in EE are very low, just a few hundred a year and most of these fail the test. So they jacked up the fees which probably leads to a further applicant reduction some day.

That is really weird.

Regards, Joerg

I got sore wrists a few years back when I broke my leg and used crutches for a while. I found that placing the monitor and keyboard at the corner of two tables so that both arms were resting on the table edges helped me. At hone, I use an LCD monitr widh sits far enough back that I can rest my arms on the table.

Well, what do you expect from a restaurant that serves tires? ;-D

Cheers! Rich

or

When I wsa studying for my CS degree, one of the courses (Computer Languages) required writing one program in Algol. You could request the diagnostic messages in French (all I remember was "Bonne compilation").

I don't know what you yer-a-peein' guys eat, but in America Michelins are tires. [tyres]. They're made of rubber, you put them on your car wheels, and they taste terrible and are almost impossible to chew.

Cheers! Rich

Hello Ray,

Oops, that may put another crimp in there since I was their boss all the time. The CEO was my boss and has a degree but no license either. The other assigment where I wasn't boss was outside the country.

Yes, maybe talking to them is the best course of action. They might be more willing now than before (I did call them about PE several years ago) because they are hurting budgetwise AFAIK and may be hungry for the $275 fee. They had already jacked up the fees substantially to make up. Not enough applicants anymore it seems.

Beats me why they do that. Doesn't make much sense.

Regards, Joerg