Once I tried turnkey procurement I never looked back. It is so much easier to just let someone else manage that and pay the small premium. Recently my assembly houses have been having trouble finding a few components, so th ere is now a short list of "customer supplied components" (CSC). I'm not c razy about buying stuff again, but it is what it is. As long as I don't ne ed to switch CMs they will track the quantities of CSC items so I only need to do the ordering. Still, I'd rather not deal with it at all.
Are you doing more of your own buying because of the passive shortages?
We do DIY ordering and kitting because we don't trust CMs not to substitute things like resistors. One thick film resistor in the wrong place could ruin our whole day. For digital stuff it's probably easier.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
sier to just let someone else manage that and pay the small premium. Recen tly my assembly houses have been having trouble finding a few components, s o there is now a short list of "customer supplied components" (CSC). I'm n ot crazy about buying stuff again, but it is what it is. As long as I don' t need to switch CMs they will track the quantities of CSC items so I only need to do the ordering. Still, I'd rather not deal with it at all.
Why don't you trust your CM? My experience is that they don't substitute a nything without approval. If the device doesn't work because they buy the wrong part they will be responsible not just for the material cost, but for the rework, no? That's motivation enough to not do any substitutions with out approval.
Who do you use? Getting those folks to understand that one 100 ohm 0603 isn't the same as another is a bit of an uphill argument IME, at least in southeast Asia. Onshore might be better, perhaps.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
Aren't your margins large enough to use an on-shore CM? There are some who will do "no substitutions". I'm sure they'll do it on a component by component basis, for some cost. The lower volume CMs might be more amenable to this, though.
It varies. We do both proprietary stuff and stuff for customers.
Onshore we've used Screaming Circuits in Oregon, Pentalogix in Colorado, and PNC in New Jersey. (All are OK; the first two are better.)
Offshore we haven't found anybody better than PCBway. They do great work, but due to the ridiculous Chinese customs rules and a duty of
30%(!) on imports of electronics parts, they want you to lie on the customs form and say that the parts are a gift, or at least cheaper than $200.
I'm not prepared to lie even to the Chinese government, so we don't do as much with PCBway as we otherwise would. (They get annoyed when we send three parts shipments of $199 each.)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
easier to just let someone else manage that and pay the small premium. Rec ently my assembly houses have been having trouble finding a few components, so there is now a short list of "customer supplied components" (CSC). I'm not crazy about buying stuff again, but it is what it is. As long as I do n't need to switch CMs they will track the quantities of CSC items so I onl y need to do the ordering. Still, I'd rather not deal with it at all.
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te anything without approval. If the device doesn't work because they buy the wrong part they will be responsible not just for the material cost, but for the rework, no? That's motivation enough to not do any substitutions without approval.
What volumes are you making that you need to go out of the country? I stay ed with the same outfit in PA for about 9 years until they brought in a new floor manager who I don't get along well with. He simply wouldn't commit to any delivery dates.
I've tried three others and it looks like this last one is a keeper. Not o nly did they produce all the units on the schedule they promised, the price is $10's cheaper.
I supply the BOM with manufacturer's PNs and they have me authorize each an d every PN change.
We've found that PCBway is highly competent and very easy to deal with compared with two of the onshore vendors we've dealt with, who were unresponsive and inefficient. (They were both staffed apparently exclusively with Indian immigrants, so there may be some cultural issues too.)
The third onshore vendor (one that we like) is Screaming Circuits in Oregon. We've had good luck with Pentalogix as well, but we've never used them for assembly.
The main issue is that we can get stuffed boards for several hundred bucks from Shenzhen in two weeks, or for a few thousand bucks onshore. When we have several projects going (as we usually do) the price difference is irksome. Pentalogix in Colorado has pricing closer to the overseas folks but understandably is always super busy.
I stayed with the same outfit in PA for about 9 years until they brought in a new floor manager who I don't get along well with. He simply wouldn't commit to any delivery dates.
So who are they?
That would be good.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
h easier to just let someone else manage that and pay the small premium. R ecently my assembly houses have been having trouble finding a few component s, so there is now a short list of "customer supplied components" (CSC). I 'm not crazy about buying stuff again, but it is what it is. As long as I don't need to switch CMs they will track the quantities of CSC items so I o nly need to do the ordering. Still, I'd rather not deal with it at all.
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tute anything without approval. If the device doesn't work because they bu y the wrong part they will be responsible not just for the material cost, b ut for the rework, no? That's motivation enough to not do any substitution s without approval.
03
You didn't answer the question. What sort of volumes are you running? If it is all prototype quantities, maybe you should try some smaller outfits. You seem to be always choosing larger companies.
I get pretty good pricing on qty 100. I haven't tried smaller runs for a l ong time.
t
ot only did they produce all the units on the schedule they promised, the p rice is $10's cheaper.
ACDI in Frederick, MD although the lower cost runs are done in North Caroli na. I just got back from having our first 500 units produced there and fou nd they have degreed tech's because jobs are hard to find. This is my firs t run with them, but so far they have been as good or better than any of th e others.
Contact me privately if you want to discuss details.
h and every PN change.
I think this is also the CM's choice since if they make a change and it doe sn't work, they are responsible for the costs. They want me to bless it so it's my problem if it doesn't work of course.
Do you have Net 30 with them, or if not, how do you enforce that? We've had some issues of that sort, and it's like pushing on a rope.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
If it is all prototype quantities, maybe you should try some smaller outfi ts. You seem to be always choosing larger companies.
a long time.
ght
Not only did they produce all the units on the schedule they promised, the price is $10's cheaper.
rolina. I just got back from having our first 500 units produced there and found they have degreed tech's because jobs are hard to find. This is my first run with them, but so far they have been as good or better than any o f the others.
ach and every PN change.
doesn't work, they are responsible for the costs. They want me to bless i t so it's my problem if it doesn't work of course.
"Enforce"??? They provide a guarantee of 1 year, although I had to negotia te that since their standard warranty is 6 months. These guys have certs o ut the wazoo as they do various mil and government work. They aren't going to cut corners and expose themselves to problems.
Oddly enough, by using turnkey CMs all my credit accounts with suppliers ex pired and I didn't have enough references to get net 30 with these guys. S o I paid 50% up front which is standard. They have said I won't have to do that anymore once I pay a few invoices.
You still haven't indicated the volume of units you produce. Is that a del iberate dodge?
uch easier to just let someone else manage that and pay the small premium. Recently my assembly houses have been having trouble finding a few compone nts, so there is now a short list of "customer supplied components" (CSC). I'm not crazy about buying stuff again, but it is what it is. As long as I don't need to switch CMs they will track the quantities of CSC items so I only need to do the ordering. Still, I'd rather not deal with it at all.
tages?
wrong
asier.
titute anything without approval. If the device doesn't work because they buy the wrong part they will be responsible not just for the material cost, but for the rework, no? That's motivation enough to not do any substituti ons without approval.
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es
he
If it is all prototype quantities, maybe you should try some smaller outfi ts. You seem to be always choosing larger companies.
a long time.
ght
Not only did they produce all the units on the schedule they promised, the price is $10's cheaper.
rolina. I just got back from having our first 500 units produced there and found they have degreed tech's because jobs are hard to find. This is my first run with them, but so far they have been as good or better than any o f the others.
ach and every PN change.
doesn't work, they are responsible for the costs. They want me to bless i t so it's my problem if it doesn't work of course.
I did have one problem during the course of our first run. I've had proble ms in the past with the PWB stackup being what I asked for. So when a ques tion came back from the PWB house about what was preferred, one that met th e requirements or one that didn't (seems a silly question, no?) I replied t o go with the good one. That apparently never got relayed to the PWB house and instead of asking again they went with their standard stackup. I was sidetracked with some personal stuff for a week or so and by the time it oc curred to me to check on this the result was they screwed up. But rather t han trying to create any troubles for me the PWB house owned up to the erro r and made the boards right.
Because of delays getting the quote negotiated and the order placed I think they paid for a 2 week turn on the PWB when they had originally quoted me a 4 week turn. Then the PWB house had to do it as a 1 week turn. The bott om line is they didn't intend to cause any problem and made up for it by ta king responsibility. So far they have been golden.
This batch has another 100 to complete test and burn in for after the holid ays. Then I have another 400 to ship the end of January. At that point I will be able to give a much better recommendation. But contact me privatel y please. Google my company if you want to send an email. I see I am usin g a dummy account for this group. Arius, Inc.
No, but it varies a lot. We've done between 10 and 200 boards per order.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
? If it is all prototype quantities, maybe you should try some smaller out fits. You seem to be always choosing larger companies.
or a long time.
ought
. Not only did they produce all the units on the schedule they promised, t he price is $10's cheaper.
Carolina. I just got back from having our first 500 units produced there a nd found they have degreed tech's because jobs are hard to find. This is m y first run with them, but so far they have been as good or better than any of the others.
each and every PN change.
it doesn't work, they are responsible for the costs. They want me to bless it so it's my problem if it doesn't work of course.
ve
otiate that since their standard warranty is 6 months. These guys have cer ts out the wazoo as they do various mil and government work. They aren't g oing to cut corners and expose themselves to problems.
s expired and I didn't have enough references to get net 30 with these guys . So I paid 50% up front which is standard. They have said I won't have t o do that anymore once I pay a few invoices.
deliberate dodge?
Ok, at qty 10 you won't get good prices from any that I've seen. Just the PWB prices will be high. I've tried to ask CMs to find out how many PWBs I can get for the same price and they understand what I'm talking about, but they just never ask for the larger qty. My boards are small so I can get I think at least 200, maybe 300 without an increase in lot charge.
Component cost will also vary with order size, but I think not as much. I am working to control some of that. The main part on my board was EOL'd so me five years ago, but one major disti bought a boat load and now is starti ng to jack up the price on the one I normally use. I switched to a differe nt voltage variant which is still reasonable. I just found a higher speed grade that is cheaper than the slowest, so I may buy all of them and have i nventory.
Anyway, I am finding this company pretty easy to work with. Why do you onl y build 10 at a time? Can you maintain inventory? I typically don't, beca use the orders are very erratic. 2016 we did a boatload of business. In 2
017 it was the big goose egg. How's that for "lumpy"?
When there's time, we get bare boards from PCBway and have the onshore CM stuff them.
For newer gigs, we're mostly doing NRE + licensing. Customers obviously want 5-10 working first articles for in-house qualification and give to their CMs. That way we can use the recurring revenue to fund new technology development.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
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