Thoughts on AutoTRAX PCB layout software?

Hi All,

I am thinking of buying AutoTRAX EDA (not the DOS Protel version!). I have demo'ed virtually every low-cost schematic/layout package* out there, and they all have certain issues -- some quite major. And while I'm use to working with Protel and PADS (which have issues too!), I cannot really afford those packages myself, but I was wondering if anyone has any feelings about AutoTRAX EDA, either pro or con, for professional board design. (I don't want to buy this package and find that it FUBARD up a $2,000 test board -- and made me look like a fool too!). The only major problem I found with this incredibly fair priced software would normally be a real deal breaker, which is it actually lets you delete nets and footprints in the PCB section after you import your schematic Netlist!! And not only that, it won't say anything about your deletion when you run the DRC! But I figure that if I know about that truly bizarre issue, I can be on the lookout for it. Any thoughts on using AutoTRAX EDA for professional PCB design (so far, to me, it seems to be the best of the low-cost packages...)?

Thanks!

-Bill

*Eagle, Easy-PC, DIPTrace, KICAD, CADint, PerformanceEDA, etc.
Reply to
billcalley
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Bill, No comments on AutoTrax EDA but it seems that you are somewhat confused in general about EDA packages. Almost every EDA package will allow you to delete existing footprints and connections in one form or another from your PCB design. Specifically two of the ones mentioned, PADs and Protel/DXP/AD. And they will not complain during the subsequent DRC check. The check for connection and part completion is to utilize whatever ECO/check process to check against the original schematic, ensuring that all the circuit and intended connections are still there. Then the DRC checks the physical implementation of those circuit nets and footprints for PCB design issues. How can the PCB DRC check something that you have deleted?

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Sincerely,
Brad Velander.
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Reply to
Brad Velander

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Thanks for the response Brad. Much appreciated, but I am not confused at all. Taking PADS as an example, there is no way on earth you can just hit the delete key and get rid of a footprint or net at will!! The only way you can do that is via ECO mode only. I have used quite a few versions of both Protel and PADS through the years, and unless they were all "setup" differently than your versions, I simply could not hit the delete key on accident on anything that was in the original schematic and simply get rid of it! I wonder why we have had two different experiences with these exact same PCB packages?

Thanks Again,

-Bill

Reply to
billcalley

Hi Bill, Okay, maybe you are not confused at as low level as I might of suspected initially.

But I have been using Protel & DXP for getting close to a decade now. I can delete anything at any time by highlighting/selecting it and hitting Delete or Shift-Delete. The only thing that will catch any error I have created thus, is a PCB update or netlist compare to the original schematic, no DRC check catches it. And there is nothing to set that allows this behavoir in Protel or DXP (now AD I can't be sure of, we haven't paid the ransom for those versions yet. But I expect little/no change in this manner.). I can guarantee you these actions for P98, P99SE and DXP versions.

Can't remember his first name at the moment but if Mr. Bennet is monitoring S.E.C. at this time he could back me up on that, as he uses Protel extensively also. The last thing we do before saving a finished PCB, try running Update PCB from the schematic to make sure nothing has been accidently lost or changed since starting layout of the PCB. ( The easiest way to lose something in Protel is to forget that you had it selected, then select something you want to delete and delete them both without knowing it. You quickly get into the habit of doing "X", "A", to 'Deselect All' after almost every action, but there are still times that you may forget and delete or move things you didn't want to delete or move.)

Yes you are right about the PADs, you must be in the ECO mode but then you can still delete anything and the DRC won't catch it afterward without some schematic interaction to restore the connectivity/footprint deleted. I had used PADs for a large chunk of the 90s.

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Sincerely,
Brad Velander.
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Reply to
Brad Velander

I've tried it and it's crap! The schematic entry isn't too bad, but PCB layout is very awkward and the software has many serious bugs. The autorouter is a joke.

Have a look at the Yahoo support forum to see what sort of problems users are having with it - some of them can't even get keys so that they can run the latest upgrade. I keep an eye on the forum - the amazing workarounds that users have to employ to get round the various bugs are quite entertaining. I suppose it's schadenfreude.

I've used Pulsonix for years, it is infinitely easier to use than Autotrax, and gets the job done very easily and quickly. It's a comprehensive professional package, which definitely isn't the case with Autotrax.

Leon

Leon

Reply to
Leon

Perhaps it can be set up to do that. It is possible to delete footprints and nets with the Pulsonix software I use by doing it explicitly for a particular design by altering one of the default settings. New designs default to having the setting disabled, of course.

Leon

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Leon

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Hi Brad,

Thanks for the update on that. Yes, I knew I was correct about PADS needing to be in ECO mode before you could screw-up the schematic's Netlist (since I have PADS on my computer now), but I had not thought that Altium DXP (Protel) let you delete a net or a footprint by the mere act of hitting the Delete key, considering it is so schematically driven (but maybe I didn't make myself clear: AutoTRAX EDA actually deletes the underlying Net when you hit the delete key to delete a copper trace). For some reason, I never experienced that when I was using DXP (last time was some three years ago). About half of even the lowest cost PCB packages don't even permit that, and they are priced at $800 and under!!

Best Regards,

-Bill

Reply to
billcalley

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Thanks Leon. I had such high hopes for AutoTRAX EDA because it seemed like the best of the low cost PCB packages, but I found out that a person could not even lay down stitching vias from one groundplane to another, as well as numerous deadly bugs that would have had me ending up in the unemployment line after the PC boards came back from fab!

Thanks,

-Bill

Reply to
billcalley

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That could very well be Leon, considering I knew a layout guy eight years ago who used Protel 99 without the layout being schematically driven at all -- he used it more like a drawing package for PCBs!

Best,

-Bill

Reply to
billcalley

Cadsoft's Eagle won't let you delete a part or a trace in the layout. At least as long as you are using both layout and schematic capture, in that case you normally run both simultaneously, any circuit changes are made in schematic capture. I suppose if you only use the layout by itself you might be able to delete parts and traces but in that case you pretty well have to be able to,

Robert

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Reply to
Robert Adsett

A very good low-cost package that I used until Pulsonix came along is Number One Systems Easy-PC. It's about the same price as Eagle but is very much easier to use.

Leon

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Leon

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There is a copy of EasyPc on ebay at the moment. =A3240.

Reply to
Marra

Know your vendor:

His business philosophy:

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His business ethics:

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Reply to
JeffM

Leon, No set-up necessary Leon, it does it straight out of the box and there is no option that controls this. Select a footprint (Shift-click, highlighted), press "Shift" "Delete", the footprint is gone along with all the underlying net connections to it (existing traces will still be there, unless they were also selected but connect to nothing). The DRC will not catch it because you have altered the PCB netlist. There is no setting that will stop it.

As I mentioned the check for such an instance is to run the schematic PCB Update facility or a netlist compare on the finished PCB. It is not a bad thing except if you are undisciplined and forget to ever recheck the design against your schematic.

Even the discussion of PADs has pointed out that you can also do this in PADs. So what if you have to do it through the ECO facility, it can still be done just not so accidently. After doing it even in ECO mode, no DRC check will flag it, you are back to also checking it against the original schematics.

Bill,

Your comment about removing a trace segment in Autotrax EDA though is definitely a weekness though. Delete a trace segment and the underlying net is lost, that is very ugly. How are you supposed to revise traces? Is there some special edit function for rerouting if you wanted to rip up a bunch of traces and start routing again?

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Sincerely,
Brad Velander.
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Reply to
Brad Velander

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Yes, there is -- but why hitting the Delete key would rip-up the trace *and* the underlying net is a mystery to me in Autotrax EDA. As with any weirdly programmed software (as most layout programs seem to be), knowing the do's and dont's can avoid a lot of heartache. But why these programs should be written in that way in the first place has always mystified me. At least the PADS way, with their ECO safety, makes the most sense. Any other technique of modifying the underlying netlist in the layout side is idiotic, at least if one likes a fully schematically-driven piece of layout software -- which I, of course, do.

Hi Leon,

Yes, EasyPC is a very good looking piece of PCB software, but unfortunately with our current UK to US exchange rates, it is just too much money right now. A real shame.

Best Regards,

-Bill

Reply to
billcalley

Bill, I always feel sorry for you Brits and the extortionist prices you pay for almost everything. I have worked for companies where our product sold in the UK for approx. 3X the same price it sold locally. (And we weren't charging anything different on those units. They were simple/cheap computer peripherals, $20 - $30 over here and i saw adds in the UK for approx. 30 -

45 pounds.) I just don't know how you guys live over there, on even a decent salary.

On that editting in Autotrax EDA, yeah you are right, it is just silly. They shouldn't allow the delete key to delete traces in such instances. Now that said some others would be upset about that but it is a classic 6 of one or half a dozen of the other scenario.

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Sincerely,
Brad Velander.
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Reply to
Brad Velander

Protel/Altium will certainly let you delete track segments, or even whole tracks, without deleting the net - DRC will report the net as unrouted or partially routed. It will also let you delete components (but you can "undo" the deletion if you realize your error in time).

I'm not sure what DRC will do if you delete all pins and track segments related to a net - I'd hope it would still report it as unrouted. However, I never consider a board "finished", until the program reports "no changes" when updating the board from the schematic, and there are no unexplained DRC errors remaining (occasionally, a design will have strange things that are reported as DRC errors, but that I know are what I want.)

If you delete a component from the PCB, the "update from schematics" step will restore it.

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Peter Bennett, VE7CEI  
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca  
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Reply to
Peter Bennett

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Hi Brad,

My statement about "our current UK to US exchange rates" was too ambiguous! I am an American, but the British pound is now 2x$, which makes a lot of their products too expensive. But I agree about what the British pay for things, especially for what their salaries are. I knew many a great UK engineer who was getting paid only $80k a year, while I was getting $120K, and we were all doing the same thing and working for the same company -- and yet their housing and food was actually more than what I had to pay (not to mention their obscenely high tax rates). That's why we have such a high standard of living, I guess!

Best,

-Bill

Reply to
billcalley

Our taxes pay for things like health care, which is free to everyone. Our poorer people are probably a lot better off than the poor in your country.

Leon

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Leon

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Sorry Leon: You're a very nice guy, and I'm not going to start a flame war on welfare states, pro and con!!

-Bill

Reply to
billcalley

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