Need suggestions to reduce signal pick up of coax cable.

Humble request: When you ask a question, tell the reader what you are trying to accomplish first, and then provide the details, not the other way around. I really hate reading such questions started at the bottom.

Any reason you don't want to disclose the brand and model number? There are literally hundreds of different mutations of RG-6/u with a wide assortment of characteristics and deficiencies. Sometimes, I'm thankful the Radio Shack is gone as their RG-6/u was abysmal with an outer braid that was more decorative than functional, and a foil layer that had a small but leaky slot due to lack of foil overlap.

Try a terminating resistor, not a short or open. See: "Coaxial Cable Leakage"

I'll spare you my rant on what I think of measuring signal levels in S-Units:

3 S-Units = 0.8 uV 6 S-Units = 6.3 uV At 6 dB per S-Unit, that's quite a range of leakage.

Yep, because you've created a loop where the coax is grounded at both ends. If you want to ground the far end, you'll need an isolation xformer at the receiver with no continuity between the shields.

Same problem as before, except instead of 200ft of RG6 from receiver to ground, you now have a shorter length of coax involved. It still a ground loop, just a smaller one.

Ok, you have leaky coax. Dig out the data sheet and calculate the shielding effectiveness of your RG-6/u cable. The reason I wanted to know the signal level in uV at the receiver is so that I could calculate the shielding effectiveness. If you could provide a reasonable guess for the field strength of whatever radio station you're using for testing in mV/meter, and since we know the coax length, I could calculate how much I would expect the center conductor to pickup through the shielding.

These might help (or be of interest): "AM Radio Field Strength Measurements with Confidence"

Field Intensity and Power Density:

Note that EVERYTHING assumes that the coax is properly terminated. Forget about testing with opens and shorts on the end of the coax cable.

Methinks (not sure) that's because the chokes don't do anything once the RF leakage has arrived at the center conductor.

That might help if you isolate the grounds across the isolation xformer.

Note the insulation between each shield: If it really is leakage, it certainly will help. If you ground alternate shield layers to each end of the cable, then there are no ground loops. It probably also has lower leakage at 1MHz, but I'm too lazy to look it up. Might be worth a try.

Terminating the far end should have helped. Perhaps it's not really leaking through the RG-6/u but rather directly into the receiver through the case?

Terminate the receiver input with just a 50 or 75 ohm termination. Make sure it's shielded. If it still leaks, then try to determine if it's leaking through the AC power line, or directly through the plastic case. If necessary, put the receiver inside a metal box, and see if that helps. If the power line leaks, try running the receiver on a battery, or add a power line filter: In other words, forget about the RG-6/u until after you've leak proofed the receiver.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann
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I have the MiniWhip sold by someone in Leningrad on eBay. It's VERY sensitive to grounding and ground loops: "Grounding of MiniWhip and other active whip antennas" I had to move the MiniWhip to various location on my hillside before I found a usable location. I current theory (pun intended) is that I'm dealing with ground currents delivered by the electrical breaker box ground rods on various houses. My ideal location turned out to be as far away as possible from any of these ground rods. However, I don't know if this is genuine or coincidence.

What kind of lighting? LED or incandescent? 117VAC LED bulbs are sometimes rather noisy. What happens when you turn off the outdoor lights?

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

As someone else already mentioned, use two 200 foot coax cables to form a differential signal and a common mode rejection. If both coax outer shields get the same noise, than a differential stage on the receiver can be designed to reject common mode noise. The two inner wires will then have the signal you want as a differential input. The common mode rejection will be one goal.

Reply to
Alan Folmsbee

Sounds like conducted noise. Try an isolating transformer on the coax. this will have to give isolation up to a few megahertz so you'll probably need to wind your own.

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     ?
Reply to
Jasen Betts

And this was with isolated power, in a Faraday shield cage? Every piece of wire (and every human near the knobs) can pick up a signal, it doesn't have to exist as a center-to-shield differential signal on the coax cable for that.

Replace the coax cable with a terminator plug, do you still pick up local stations?

Reply to
whit3rd

Ok, I went out and looked at the numbers on the coax,

Genesis Cable Systems P/N 5010 RG 6/U 18 awg Broadband Premium E175106 (UL) type CATV OR CL2 75C SUNRESS W/O #40874-295

I have tried a 75 ohm termination, with that it has couple S units more signal than with a short.

Ya, I bought an HP 3586B to play these games, but haven't been able to get it working.

ooh-- ya, my little ass'y didn't do that, ooh good catch.

I have an Icom R71A, I'll run over the above, but... Yes, I believe in one of my posts made reference to putting a couple of large CMC chokes on the Radio power cord and knock several signal down to 1 S units or even 0 although I could hear there was audio. Supper is Calling, Thanks, Mike

Reply to
amdx

** So a *loop antenna* - right ??

Been using one with my hi-fi, tube AM radio for the last 40 years.

Started out following maker's instructions with a single turn wound around a window, then tried a much smaller loop with 10 turns. It worked just as well and could be oriented to eliminate 9kHz whistle or adjacent channels.

The connecting cable is light duty figure 8, sold for use with cheap speakers.

Until the loop is attached, it picks up nothing.

If I were to use a very long run then some heavier figure 8, split apart and twisted once per foot might be the go.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

To measure the local station intrusion into the RG-6 coax, terminate both ends with 75 ohm resistors. Using a high impedance floating (battery powered) RF-voltmeter across one of the termination resistors, measure the signal strength of the local stations.

With lack of proper measuring gear, the receiver might be usable. The problem is that the input impedance (resistance and reactance) varies across the receiver input terminals versus frequencies in the MW band. The fact that the intrusion problem seems to be worst at lower end suggests that the input impedance is rising towards lower frequencies. Since to MW low end frequencies are close to the receiver low end (100 kHz), input filters may cause impedances wildly different from 50/75 ohms resistive.

If the receiver input impedance is high in MW band, directly connecting the receiver across the 75 resistor night be OK. Attractively increase the receiver end termination to 100 ohms so that termination+receiver will be close to 75 ohm resistive. One thing is to try putting an inductor across receiver input with 75 ohm reactance at 300 kHz to compensate the input filter impedance variations.

****

Since the CM choke in the mains lead helped, there can be at least two explanations.

1.) The local mains network works as an antenna and the receiver mains filters are inadequate. After all in the old days, mains wiring, telephone wires or telephone cable shields and even water and gas pipes were used as antenna. Apparently this was so common that in some radio amateur regulations, the use of such antennas for transmission was forbidden :-).

2.) There is something wrong with the radio internal wiring. The coaxial cable (shields) acts as an random wire antenna and the mains provides the signal ground. Cutting this grounding path with a CM choke seems to help the situation.

Is it possible to operate the receiver from a floating battery without any mains or ground connections ?

Reply to
upsidedown

A battery to run the radio is in my near future. Mikek

Reply to
amdx

I found the spec's RG6/U

18gauge CCS - Copper Clad Steel 40% Al - Shield 2.4 GHz 82% - Nominal Velocity of Propagation 16 pf/ft 0.275- dia.

The braid percentage at 40% is disappointing. I expected so much more from a full 1000 ft reel I picked up when a neighbor moved and left a big pile of junk for the city to pick up. :-) I do have some Amphenol T660-FVC, with 60% braid, not much better. I'll probably experiment with twisted speaker wire, after I get the battery to eliminate any connection to the AC line. I put a question on the R-71A Yahoo group, asking if there has been any internal problems causing RF to leak in the AC line. I'm a doubter on that, but... Mikek

Reply to
amdx

Ummm... that's disgusting and might be the source of the leakage. Actually, the correct term is "ingress" since the RF is going in, and not out of the coax as it would be for "leakage".

Well, you could use it to make a cheap distributed antenna system in place of expensive leaky coax.

I wonder what the "better" grades of RG-6/u offer for shielding? Looks like Honeywell Genesis etc cable comes in various grades. Dual Shield: - 100% Aluminum Foil Shield - 45-80% Aluminum Braid Shield or 100% Tinned Copper Braid Shield If it's 40%, then you have the cheapest grade of cable that they make. Worse, when I tried to look for #5010 cable on the Honeywell web pile at, nothings appeared: Of the various types they offer, the closest is "video surveillance" cable, which is an indoor only type. It probably lacks UV protection and might not survive very well outdoors.

Ok, let's try Commscope RG-6/u (non-plenum and non-direct burial): Looks like quad shielded: isn't much better than the Honeywell cable. 60% on the inner braid and 40% on the outer.

RG-58c/u (Belden 8262): is rated at 95% coverage, with only a braided wire shield and no aluminum. Are you sure you want to use RG-6/u?

Ah, Zip cord. Instead, I suggest that you start with two parallel runs of barbed wire. Look around the neighborhood. You might find some near the junk pile where you found the RG-6/u.

If there's anything arriving via the power line, that should get rid of it.

I don't think anyone would notice unless the AM stations was next door. Field strength has quite a bit to do with the severity of the problem. Are you near an AM BCB station?

I think the fashionably correct term is that you're a denier.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Regarding using two RG-6 cables for a balanced feed, why not use some ready made balanced coaxial cables such as the 93 ohm IBM Twinax.

In reality, any shielded twisted pair should work equally well at 1 MHz such as CAT5 FTP/STP.

Of course baluns are required at both ends in all these cases.

Reply to
upsidedown

You could try inserting a 50 or 75ohm shielded in-line attentuator at the receiver input. That would iron out receiver input impedence mismatches. Then see how well the drop in received signal correlates with the attenuator i.e. if the attentuator is 10dB and the receiver level drops exactly 10dB then you know fersure the noise is pickedup in the coax before the attenuator but if the received signal drops only 8dB then you know some signal is getting in after the attenuator. Depends on how accurate your S-meter is though :)

piglet

Reply to
piglet

I could not get your 11:54 post to display. That happens occasionally, sometimes if I try two or three times the post will display, sometimes I wait an hour, sometimes I use my laptop and it displays. Today, I read it in Google groups.

I'm not going to invest in any more coax. OK, if I run the speaker wire and it doesn't prevent signals better than the coax, then better coax could be in my future.

I'll digress a bit. The antenna I'm connecting this coax to, is a BOG antenna. My BOG is a short 300ft "Beverage On Ground". Probably temporary, as it may interfere with my end goal antenna.

Because it's a short BOG, it won't have the great F/B ratio in the AM band that I'd like, so I found a SW station at 5950 that is on the backside of the antenna. On my long wire I have over 6 S units, on my BOG I'm at Zero S units with very low but understandable audio.

The question remains, is the system dead at that frequency or is that showing F/B ratio. Hope fully this evening I can find some other close frequency signals to tell me it is working.

I need to take another stab at repairing my 3586B, this would be more fun with that to measure with.

My end goal is four phased antennas, might be Deltas, might be wire on the ground. I'm just in a holding pattern on that as I collected info about best ways to prevent signal ingress and parts. The AM radio gurus that use phased antennas have went to twisted speaker wire because of ingress problems with coax. It hasn't been stated, but that could be a trade off between buying expensive highly shielded coax vs simple speaker wire that works just as well. I have also corresponded with one that did use Cat5 and said it worked fine, I also have a phased antenna write up that makes use of Cat5. With the phased antennas, ingress will degrade the nice pattern that you hope to get with a phased system.

OK, I now have my radio powered by battery only. This may be a poor day to test a piece of coax, as it has rained. That said, the battery connection seems reduce the high end signal ingress down to about 950kHz, from there down there is a slight increase in signal ingress. This is with a short at the far end. A proper termination increases all signals.

One last trek for today, into the the woods to reconnect my BOG to the coax for tonight's listening pleasure.

Mikek

Reply to
amdx

** See:

formatting link

** I hope nobody here has failed to recognise that "amdx" is barking mad.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Participation in SED proved that long ago.

Reply to
jurb6006

Not able to get your post to display, had to look on google groups.

I have looked a dozens of Beverage sites, what did you want me to glean from the wiki?

The wiki says nothing about BOGs.

Saying that I am barking mad is rather benign, congratulations, I hear it's not always easy to get those meds correct. I am curious what criteria you used to make that decision. I hope you weren't going on beverages are long and terminated. Mikek

Reply to
amdx

** The link was for the benefit of others, who like me had no f...ing idea what a Beverage antenna was.

I see you have discovered that co-ax is not ideal for loop antennas and that a simple twisted pair line may work better. Did you miss my info ?

** Yeah, I should have been harder.
** Your fanatical obsession with the pursuit of impossible goals is one.

That you are scheme to involve others is another.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

:-)

I can't agree on Fanatical Obsession, I ran a coax, found it picked up much more signal than I thought it would, I spent a few hours around a work schedule (as little as it is) trying to reduce the signals. I ask a few questions, checked my coax specs, found I could have better shielding. That has me wondering how much a better coax would help. I have some 93 ohm cable with a much better braid, but no foil, I wonder if I should try it? I may run the twisted speaker wire tomorrow.

That's not barking mad, it's either diabolical, or I just admit others know more than I do and I can use their knowledge in my pursuits. The big plus, I'm having fun! Mikek

Reply to
amdx

** Your antenna project is absurd.
** It will still have RF interference / noise issues.

Cos the receiver MUST have a 600ohm, well balanced input.

** That you scheme to involve others is another.

** It absolutely is.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

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