Hello Frank,
How do you know that?
FYI, I work in medical and there are areas where lead is not allowed. My exposure to conductive bonding processes of such devices is about twelve years by now. And we are talking mass production here. Ok, maybe that's not enough by your standards.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Well said, that man !
Graham
Really ?
Before he vanished John Woodgate reported about the increasing failure rates of TVs made with lead free processes !
And they were 'complaining' in an industry mag.
Graham
"Joerg" schreef in bericht news:Yzbug.173016$F snipped-for-privacy@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Does that involve lead-free solder too? What is the trick to prevent whiskers? Fill us in, with your 12 years experience you must be able to give some advice, other than just complaining.
-- Thanks, Frank. (remove \'q\' and \'.invalid\' when replying by email)
I repeat: coatings (of any kind) are *NOT* reliable! There is *NO* known method to "cure" tin whiskers - other than not using tin!
It would be helpful to disclose some of that information..
I second that.
Contact bonding has been used in a variety of places for years. Have a look at:
Best Wishes
Hello Robert,
Sorry, but that isn't possible because it is a tightly guarded trade secret. Just this much I can say: We have to stop thinking just about solder to do connections, sometimes it isn't the right stuff. Especially in very dense situations where whiskers do present a problem. Head in the sand or "it'll all be ok because the legislators said so" like some people seem to prefer is not the solution.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Hello Frank,
Yes, it does but not the stuff that is sold in the stores now. Can't reveal details as that would seriously damage a few companies' competitive edge and I would be in breach of contract. Also, these approaches would be far too expensive and cumbersome in "normal" electronics assembly anyway. IOW, it would not help the cause here.
What I am complaining about is this: A legislative body has made a decision and as far as I can tell there is no clear alternative path they could point industry to. That's wrong. Before you make a law you need to show your constituents how they are supposed to comply with it.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Hello Roger,
Bonding is one very viable alternative. Besides thermal and electrical resistance an issue that frequently crops up especially in highly regulated areas such as here in California is fumes. Once cured, most adhesives are ok. But while the dispenser robot is going the stench can be quite nasty and you'd have to scrub all the toxins out of the exhaust air.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
"Joerg" schreef in bericht news:Svxug.131637$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
Okay, so back then a solution was found, be it expensive and cumbersome. If this secret only gives a few companies a competive edge, all your telling us that this still have competitors that are still able to sell their products. It still isn't clear to me what your 12 years experience is worth. As far as I can see, it only lulled you into believing there is no other solution, because you didn't look for anything else, for 12 years. It certainly doesn't make you sound like some general expert on lead free soldering.
Large companies didn't seem to have much difficulties with it. They are all ready, all on schedule. How is that possible?
You sound like an old French wine maker, complaining about lead bottle capsules being banned, back in 1994. 12 years ago. Yes, they had to invest in new equipment to seal their bottles, and yes, the legislative bodies didn't gave them a step-by-step foolproof guide how to do it exactly.
-- Thanks, Frank. (remove \'q\' and \'.invalid\' when replying by email)
Hello Frank,
You are drawing conclusions a bit too fast. There are competitors but they offer totally different (to a large extent non-electronic) technology. If they knew how we'd done it they would embark onto the same bandwagon. Naturally, that is not desired.
We did look for other solutions. We found them. But as I said they are pretty must cost-prohibitive for consumer gear and we did not find something less expensive.
Oh, and BTW we were told by a few top notch (European) robot makers that "you cannot do this". We did it.
Are you? Let me turn this around and repeat the question I already asked you: Where is the proof that lead-free solder works well under normal wear and tear conditions and for the long term? With long term I do not mean a few months or so.
Examples? Publications? Detailed report? Links?
Sometimes I wish I was a French wine maker. But not an old one ;-)
BTW, this is different because there were already established alternative procedures with a long history. Wax seals and so on. And yes, also the, gasp, beer bottle cap that certainly works and has a history of probably a hundred years or so.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
"Joerg" schreef in bericht news:K8zug.6203$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
That's the spirit.
I'm no expert, in fact I know nothing about the subject. In 2002 we had already 5-10% lead free soldered consumer electronics. I would expect to have heard more horror stories other than some complaining here at SED. SED is not the place where it all happens.
Well, if you google for "ROHS motherboard" you will see that plenty is available. I call that "on schedule". A PC's motherboard is an extremely complicated piece of electronics that can't be thrown together just like that. Apperently these guys were all able to solve their soldering jobs. If it had been next to impossible, we would have heard them yelling and bitching.
My main point was that the law makers didn't provide the solution. Wine makers had to solve it themselves. In your example, with the medical gadget, the restriction of not using lead was probably dictated by the customer, and your customer didn't give the solution either.
You have a tendency to complain about everything. About component prices, about websites that don't work, about laptops running out of juice, salesmen without a clue, non-dos software that doesn't work, while, OTH, everybody else seems to manage those problems pretty well.
BTW, Philips Medical Systems goes ROHS too, even though medical gear is exempted from ROHS.
-- Thanks, Frank. (remove \'q\' and \'.invalid\' when replying by email)
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 09:41:25 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote in Msg.
Same here. You can do a lot worse, health-wise.
BTW, I prefer my cashews un-roasted and un-salted. Even healthier!
robert
Cashews make me fart just as bad as beans!!!
Most of the big manufacturers of motherboards, TVs and other consumer electronics are absolutely delighted that "through no fault of their own" - their products will have drastically shorter life expectancy due to lead free solder joints failing prematurely and so increasing throughput of replacement products!
Also the intermittent nature of lead-free's failure mode (often involving arcing in CRT displays and other HV gear!) has created a consumer mindset that any equipment that fails will continue to be "nothing but trouble" no matter how competently repaired. Some consumers are actually terrified when their TV or monitor starts arcing and dropping burning embers out the grill at the bottom and throw equipment in the trash for even the slightest hiccup!
Hello Frank,
s.e.d.? T'is the place where a lot of experts on electronics hang out. People who design stuff that is produced by the truck load.
Sure, Tyan and the others have no choice. They must produce RoHS motherboards if they want to continue to ship to Europe. Other vendors might decide to cut Europe off (I happen to know one).
If RoHS really backfires this may put an additional crimp into the European economy. There might develop a market for non-RoHS gear, commanding top Dollar. Since EU companies most likely won't be allowed to produce that they might hear a loud flushing sound (money flowing out instead of in).
We do not know whether they solved the lead-free solder issue. Absent long term tests prior to enacting RoHS we won't know until a few years down the road. Best case it's all hunky-dory, worst case you guys won't have reliable computers anymore. Then you could send your files to the US and the guys over here compute them for ya :-)
No, as I had pointed out there already were solutions. Very different scenario.
Customers never give solutions. That why there are engineers ;-)
If you look closely I usually complain under two circumstances:
a. When there is clearly a tried and true alternative and some companies have just lost the ability to do it, or don't care. Take the laptop: I have one that did 6 hours on an old-technology NiCd (until a very rough airplane ride cracked its enclosure). So, it clearly can be done. There is proof. But the younger lads can't seem to figure it out anymore. My advice: Hire some older lads to teach the young lads how it's done :-))
b. When something is done willy-nilly, without prior due diligence. Such as RoHS.
Am I the only one? Nope. Read this:
Quote: "Today, no quantifiable means of predicting tin-whisker-related problems exist."
If that is indeed true (and I haven't heard from anyone including you that it ain't) you might still say you don't care about what the mil guys think but we might be in for a very rude awakening. Well, not "we" per se but the Europeans.
I wish them good luck. They may need it.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Another fact we didn't need to know.
-- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell Central Florida
Is till say that we should not allow the importation of anything made under ROHS guidelines. While we're at it, the law should require service data and repair parts be available, BEFORE an item can be imported. Sure, not every item is worth troubleshooting, but if someone has a couple hundred or thousand returned items let them take a chance if they want to try.
-- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida
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