I believe it's not actually *exempted* but doesn't fall into the RoHS remit !
Typical damn legalese nonsense. I suspect automotive gets off like that too ( covered by other legislation ). It's a totally ridiculous mire of paperwork invented by the moronic fatheads in Brussels.
Graham
So, does lead-free solder have this problem too ? How bad is it ? Do you have studies, pictures, etc ?
vic
Michael, (Slightly OT) It seems silly to spend so many resourses on ROHS with respect to solder, when recycling would be a more sensible (and much safer, as far as avionics is concerned) alternative. Think of all the lead-acid automobile batteries that are in use. This lead is kept out of the environment via recycling. Regards, Jon
Too ? It is lead-free issues we're talking about !
Just Google ! There are any number of problems with lead-free soldering notably, in the consumer domain, reduced product lifetime resulting in more waste generation.
Graham
The big companies you mention are absolutely delighted that "through no fault of their own" their products will have very short lifetimes, the intermittent nature of lead free solder failure has created a consumer mindset that once an item fails it will continue to give nothing but trouble no matter how competently repaired, so most equipment is thrown out at the first hint of intermittent operation!!!
Which is of course about as *ungreen* as it gets despite the apparent motive behind RoHS !
Graham
"Eeyore" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com...
Hello Klaus,
I have just finished another design and several parts were only available in non-lead. We used regular lead solder, no problem.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Yet....
The picture linked by the OP specifically shows whiskers growing on the tin plated leads of a crystal in the area which had not been Sn/Pb solder dipped.
Found another reference, maybe this will help:
"What are Tin Whiskers? Tin whiskers are electrically conductive, crystalline structures of tin that sometimes grow from surfaces where tin (especially electroplated tin) is used as a final finish."
Michael
Yes, it's a concern for all tin plated surfaces. Sometimes you can get other plating but typically only on high-end parts. Ultimetaly time will tell. If this RoHS and WEEE stuff turns out to be a major blunder, and chances are that it does, we'll probably see a reversal in manufacturer's reactions. To some extent we are already seeing that, not in parts but in shipping policies. Don't know which one it was but I have seen in the terms of one supplier that they simply will not ship certain merchandise to Europe anymore.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
"Eeyore" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com...
trouble
the
motive
Somehow I just don't believe you're complaining because of the environmental issues. Are you sure its got nothing to do with the hassles it gives, or with the fear for the unknown?
Let's see what happens. If it turns out as a disaster, nothing to worry. We're all in the same boat. If it can't be solved, we'll be back to leaded solder in notime.
BTW, I don't like lead-free either, it doesn't solder as nicely as the good old leaded stuff. But it doesn't upset me, and my prototype stuff and bench experiments don't suffer either.
-- Thanks, Frank. (remove \'q\' and \'.invalid\' when replying by email)
That's wholly wrong. I was only reading recently about studies on whisker growth on tin plated component leads.
I think it's accelerated by both high temperature and humidity btw.
Graham
Hello Frank,
Ahem, couldn't it be the fear of the known? What telco companies found out in the 40's can't simply be legislated away. Except that some Eurocrats think they could. When you have a known problem and find a solution (adding lead in this case) you typically don't go back to the old stuff sixty years later without significant and proven mitigation. Well, guess in Brussels they do that...
With all due respect, I believe that position is a wee bit naive. Or like they say in France, laissez faire. No worry, be happy, KABOOM.
And, of course, there will be no unintended consequences such as legacy RoHS equipment that is going to be in use and where nobody knows when and how spectacular the failure will be, will there?
Prototype stuff is fine. We'll all learn how to handle lead-free. The problems may or may not surface after a few years. But when they do surface, boy, I don't want to be the VP of Quality Control at one of the manufacturers.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
"Joerg" schreef in bericht news:PnVsg.63656$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
Adding lead turned out to be a problem as well, so it was only a half baked solution. Removing the lead in our car fuel was not a bad idea. The 40% percent lead in solder is a *lot* and seems worth looking into. Not at all costs/risks, so there are a couple of exemptions already made.
Au contraire, the wasted lead is the ticking time bomb.
Ah, it *is* fear of the unknown ;)
All the VP's of QC are in the same boat as well. They all earn shitloads of money and can retire at 40.
-- Thanks, Frank. (remove \'q\' and \'.invalid\' when replying by email)
Hello Frank,
Half baked? It worked. In cars it was easier, basically better valve seats. My 1969 Citroen (engine designed in the late 30's or so) was quite modern in that respect. It had no problems with unleaded.
Nothing to worry? We'll watch that from a safe distance :-)
Note that I didn't say "if" but "when" and "how spectacular". Just wait until a couple of pins on the uC of a gas furnace controller let go because the solder joints fouled up.
Not around here, at least not for small companies. Small companies tend to be less politically connected and that can burn then when RoHS does backfire.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
Personally I would like to see a blanket exemption for any product which has a warranty exceeding 10 years (probably with the companies contributing to some kind of insurance scheme to ensure that the warranty will be honoured, rather than giving an unfair advantage to companies that know in advance that they don't intend to be around in 10 years' time).
People seem inclined to buy crap that is designed to fail in a few weeks whether it's lead free or not. That kind of junk probably should be lead free, (and people should have the brains not to buy it also) but if a manufacturer makes a decent effort to build a reliable product and give a good warranty then it makes sense to allow them to use the most reliable materials particularly since it will in any case be mandatory to recycle this stuff when it does need replacing.
Chris
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:03:21 +0200, Klaus Bahner Gave us:
This is SO absolutely wrong.
** Maybe and maybe not. Results are highly variable. Try something and i might work and someone else might have problems. Absolutely guaranteed to be variable.
growth
Ok, I should have been more precise. Even if there are only lead free parts available you are still able to process them in a non-lead-free process, which means you can easily coat your parts with a lead/tin alloy. Comes automatically when you reflow SMD components with lead/tin alloy, leaded parts may require special handling, if you mount them with largely exposed leads - but standoffs might be anyway a good idea in such a situation. The popular picture of the tin whisker on the crystal lead shows a crystal with a rather unintelligent mounting position anyway. Avoiding mechanical stress, i.e. bending, shouldn't be a big deal if you adapt your production to a lead free process.
Besides that I just don't think it's appropiate to call RoHS for the doomsday of all electronics. So far, the incidents on NASA's popular tin whisker site seem rather exotic to me (a satellite for example is working under ultra high vacuum, extreme temperature and high radiation conditions). I don't know whether RoHS will be a more complex problem than adapting to other production issues. So far I think chances are rather high that you can control it in the same way as other production issues. (How many failures of end products were caused because production plants didn't stick to the correct soldering temperature profile or didn't bake components correctly?)
Klaus
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