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Re: fiddled filter design
On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 11:05:39 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
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kthrough,
ng  
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e  
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't  
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University teachers - as opposed to university researchers who teach as wel
l a do research - do tend to be peevish. The nastier ones I ran into as an  
undergraduate and a graduate student weren't highly regarded by their colle
agues because they didn't publish much (and what they did publish didn't ma
ke it into higher ranked journals) and took out their resentment on the stu
dents.

In an industrial environment, being nasty to your colleagues doesn't pay of
f. They will be unhelpful in response, and you can't get stuff done. Being  
unkind to your students isn't as immediately expensive.
  
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They failed too many of the pop tests? Or they didn't show up for the pract
ical classes? Getting rid of 30% of the people enrolled by half-way through
 the year should have required fairly draconian testing.
  
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Why not? Being born pretty or well-coordinated makes them socially or athle
tically superior. Being born smart makes them academically superior.

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Not if it allows half-wits to go around thinking that they know what they a
re talking about. Other half-wits might take them seriously.

Some people are rather too inclined to believe that they don't get things w
rong - about anthropogenic global warming for example - and need to be disc
ouraged from propagating dangerous nonsense.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: fiddled filter design
On 14/11/2018 00:05, John Larkin wrote:
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[snip]
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Scientists are human too.

You probably didn't understand the nature of the probably very basic  
error the hapless student had made. I have known some very cutting  
comments from the sharper tongued researchers of my acquaintance.  
Defending a thesis or hypothesis is adversarial in nature. You have to  
be able to back up what you are claiming with evidence.

Steady State vs Big Bang was personalised by Hoyle and Ryle in Cambridge  
eventually leading to the loser going into self imposed exile. Ryle was  
proved right but in part for the wrong reasons since some of the excess  
of faint radio galaxies they found were actually sidelobe artefacts.  
Penzias and Wilsons 1964 detection of the microwave background was the  
final nail in the coffin for Steady State.

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That may be a kindness to the ones unsuited to be working in a chemical  
laboratory environment. Teaching laboratory science is expensive so you  
only want to have the students that are actually going to make it.

My final year theoretical physics course was well known as a complete  
bastard and the first week had a very hard exam at the end of it  
intended to put off anyone who wouldn't make the grade. It eased off a  
bit after that but the finals paper was still extremely tough.

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It is kinder to let them know that they are not suited to their chosen  
course of study earlier when they can still change subject rather than  
later.

--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: fiddled filter design
On 14/11/18 09:43, Martin Brown wrote:
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Anecdotally some medical schools give their students human
dissection practicals in the first couple of weeks.

There's the old joke of, ahem, mating bits of a male cadaver
with a complete female cadaver, knowing that a new female
student would be doing the exercise. When she uncovered the
dirty deed her quick-witted response was "OK, which one of
you guys left in a hurry?"


Re: fiddled filter design
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:43:34 +0000, Martin Brown

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It wasn't kindness. Freshmen chemistry was mandatory and the kids who
flunked were out of the university. The faculty was sort of proud of
that, getting rid of the losers. I don't think the losers left feeling
very proud.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: fiddled filter design
On 14/11/2018 13:25, John Larkin wrote:
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Freshmen chemistry was mandatory for all courses? How weird!
So is having such draconian exams at the end of the first term.

My university made mathematics for scientists mandatory but you could  
choose whichever of the sciences you studied. There were two streams of  
maths the hard stream and the easier one. I went mostly to the hard  
stream except in one term when the lecturer was so opaque (a brilliant  
guy and great fun to know as I later found out but he couldn't teach to  
save his life and his exam questions were impossible time wasters).

During that term all the people who really understood maths drifted off  
to the easy course on set theory which became overcrowded whilst some of  
the people from the easy course drifted the other way to get a seat!

During the summer there were optional courses on computing, German and  
Russian for reading chemistry papers in the original language. Only  
computing ability was actually tested as a formal project though.

--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: fiddled filter design
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:25:54 -0800, John Larkin

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Both chemistry and physics were the admitted flunk-out courses when I
was in school.  Before I wen through, they also had TAM (Theoretical
and Applied Mechanics - stone crushing) and Thermo to help flunk out
more.

Re: fiddled filter design
On 12/11/18 20:21, John Larkin wrote:
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I would hope and expect they would be hostile toward
someone that presumed the existence of N-rays or
luminiferous aether.

Apart from that, people are people; physicists aren't
immune to good/bad behaviour.

And academic rivalries are famously vicious, as
immortalised in Sayre's Law, viz: "The politics of
the university are so intense because the stakes
are so low"

Re: fiddled filter design
On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 4:32:01 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
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What makes you think that a virus can't kill 100% of a previously healthy p
opulation?
  
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The eye is a marvellously complex mechanism. How could that have evolved by
 random mutation and natural selection? We've found all sorts of less compl
icated eyes in the geological record, and the evolutionary path seems clear
 enough.

The repair mechanisms don't seem to fossilise. Looking at immune and repair
 systems in other (mostly less complex) creatures does seem to have lead to
 some plausibly hypotheses about evolutionary paths, even if John Larkin ha
sn't heard about them.

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Why waste your money? Intelligent Design falls over as soon as you see how  
much stupid design exists in actual animals. Any intelligent designer would
 have put error-detecting and error-correcting code into the DNA-to-RNA-to-
protein translation machinery. There isn't any so there isn't any intellige
nt designer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Behe

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a
  
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The unreasonable regions of the solution space are a lot bigger than the re
asonable regions. We haven't got infinite time.

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Twaddle. Even the most massively parallel processor takes longer to explore
 a larger solution space.

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True, but you still only sleep eight hours per day, and you do have to give
 your sleeping brain something to get started on. My sleeping brain doesn't
 compose music.
  
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So what?
  
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One that was almost inaccessible to your conscious mind. That doesn't mean  
that what was going on there was irrational.

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John Larkin doesn't understand evidence or proof. Science doesn't generate  
"provably correct" hypotheses. Scientists try to come up with hypotheses th
at fit all the facts that they know. Once they've got more than one hypothe
sis, they can get to pick the simplest and most plausible hypothesis.

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There are no "proven" theories in physics, only theories that haven't yet b
een falsified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger_equation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_mechanics

describe two different representations of quantum mechanical reality - with
 Feynman's path-integral approach forming a third. Dirac managed to demonst
rate that the first two representations were equivalent.

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As in the fossil carbon extraction industry denying that anthropogenic clim
ate change is occurring, with the sub-claim that if it did happen it wouldn
't be a problem.

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s
  
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Obviously, but you need observations to motivate the theoreticians to do an
ything useful. String theory seems to fascinate theoreticians, but it hasn'
t come up with any testable predictions yet.

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ce

What would be an "obvious and immediate" proof that a particular circuit wa
s worth looking at?

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Sometimes. Linus Pauling specialised in that. Most flawed conjectures are j
ust a waste of time - intelligent design is an obvious example.

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It's equally crippled by people who produce nonsense ideas and can't accept
 that their ideas are nonsense. The aim is to explore the solution space, n
ot drift off into the non-solution space.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: fiddled filter design
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Not my field, but has my interest, I do seem to remember reading that there are error correcting mechanisms.
And redundancy:
 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/11/181102094818.htm

But really (diving into philosophy) if WE humans can design,
sure a lower level (if you will 'something' that we are build of, can design..

What we call 'Designing' is just looking for a way forward in -, out of a labyrinth in a way.
All your math and all you toys and achievement was formed that way.
You see the same behavior in animals, crows for example design their own tools.
Published a link to that some time ago.

From that POV John L, is right.

Re: fiddled filter design
On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 6:55:39 PM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@nospam.org wrote:
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have put error-detecting and error-correcting code into the DNA-to-RNA-to-protein translation machinery.
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That wasn't what they were saying. If anything, the way the DNA string gets wound up means that every tenth base pair is more vulnerable to damage than the rest, which would be an error-introducing mechanism - incidental rather than designed in.
  
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Why would you think that? "Design" implies that the "designer" has a target in mind - which is to say a mind.  
  
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But it does imply some insight into the structure of the labyrinth.

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They weren't formed by throwing dice until a solution that worked came up.

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But they don't do selective breeding to produce more ingenious crows.

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Sadly, it's a fatuous point of view, based on a rather imperfect grasp of what is going on.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: fiddled filter design
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<quote from the above link:>
 The researchers demonstrate that DNA damage and repair processes can play a role in the generation of sequence periodicity
 in the genomes of eukaryotic organisms.
<end quote>

You stated that DNA repair processes do not exists, if I did read you right.


  
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No, it is much like water, drop falls on surface, and finds a way, via cracks, channels, etc.
As complexity increases from 'drop of water' to micro organisms, the same processes happen.
'life' if you want to call it that, will find a way.

Part of our brain holds what is very much like a 2D map of the solution space,
this map if formed by our 'education', and experiences.
 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/11/181108142443.htm

We then build what you could see as a 'view from above' on the labyrinth.
That is how I do fault finding, I know what there should be,
and the road structure of the labyrinth, recognize each pathway,
Knowledge acquired from education and experience.

Same for how I design, very little if anything is 'new' it is just building blocks
arranged to form a new castle.
Some time you use the building blocks (stones) in a new way, take things from other fields and
apply solutions from that.
I worked in many fields and the learning process does create that top view of the labyrinth.

The universe (big bang included but likely earlier than that), unfolds that way.
You can call it intelligence, it is the same intelligence that makes water from H and O.
The path that is possible is taken.
That is what I mean with 'intelligence' is inherent to every thing, not only 'life'
Life is a result of it, nothing special, and likely everywhere.



  
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Nobody is perfect, but from his viewpoint and my experience if you are honest to yourself, it makes a lot of sense.
The ego thing 'we are the [intelligent species]' is just like putting yourself and earth at the center of whatever us speck of dust is in.


Re: fiddled filter design
On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 11:24:19 PM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@nospam.org wrote:
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You didn't. I said there wasn't any error-detecting and error-correcting mechanism - with the implication that there were extra check-bits in the DNA string to serve that purpose.

It's well-known that there are mechanisms to repair breaks in the string, but they just put the freed ends back together, not always correctly.
  
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That doesn't happen to be design.

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Mindless exploration of the environment isn't design. It can effectively explore a lot of space but isn't systematic and is by no means guaranteed to be  comprehensive.

<snipped irrelevant excursion>
  
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You haven't said anything remotely relevant, or sensible.

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Our tools are spectacularly more effective than other species tools. We can reasonably claim to be the premier tool-using species on the planet. To that extent we are at the centre of what we know about.

We can't discuss what we don't know about, but John Larkin keeps trying.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: fiddled filter design
bill sloman wroten
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OK, but if there is not any error-detection and error correcting,
then there is no repair system possible.
I hope you see that?


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I strongly suggest that instead of snipping a very relevant link, you actually read it:
 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/11/181108142443.htm
  "Navigating our thoughts: Fundamental principles of thinking"
   It is work from a Nobel winner, still some path to go for you.


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Maybe, but you are really good at it 4 sure :-)


Re: fiddled filter design
On Tuesday, November 13, 2018 at 3:01:39 AM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@nospam.org  
wrote:
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rg wrote:
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.org wrote:
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 see how much stupid design exists in actual animals.
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A-to-protein translation machinery.
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at there are error correcting mechanisms.
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g gets wound up means that every tenth base pair is
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ng mechanism - incidental rather than designed in.  
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play a role in the generation of sequence periodicity
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right.
 mechanism - with the implication that there were extra
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The existing repair system repairs breaks in the DNA string. IIRR there is  
an end of string sequence, and presumably the repair mechanism is smart eno
ugh to be able to detect that and not to try to glom different chromosomes  
together - though they might just be always far enough apart that the repai
r enzyme couldn't even try.  
  
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 honest to yourself, it makes a lot of sense.
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ually read it:
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I did read it, and it isn't relevant. It can be paraphrased as "rats store  
information in the brain, and can work through that information  to draw co
nclusions from it" which is so obviously true as to be a waste of time to a
rticulate - except when you need to say something to keep reporters quiet.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with "intelligent design".
  
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The fact that you don't seem to have clue what I'm talking about does deval
ue your opinion.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: fiddled filter design
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It is not so bad that *I* do not know what you are talking about,
what is much worse is that *you* do not know it :-)


Re: fiddled filter design
On Tuesday, November 13, 2018 at 7:23:10 PM UTC+11, snipped-for-privacy@nospam.org wrote:
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How would you know? One can work out how you'd think you'd know - ignorant people do tend to be over-confident - but nobody else is going to take you seriously.  

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: fiddled filter design
wrote:

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If mutation actually drives evolution, critters with perfect error
correction will fail to evolve and will encounter other things that
have evolved to eat them.

So evolution would pick an optimum mutation rate, to optimize
evolution. Or do something even better.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: fiddled filter design
John Larkin wrote:
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There are 2 different things, adaptation of the species,
and random mutations,

I know experiments with random mutations due to radioactivity have suggested once in a while something better emerges,
but usually not.
But the changes due to the intelligence of the things we are build from,
cause, over time, adaptation to for example climate changes, other living conditions.
Examples are people living at high altitude, people living in polar areas,
all have over generations adapted, their bodies have.
That is why Africans are black, and us northerns are white for example,
sun protection...
That is not 'random' at all.


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That is a fairy tale, [random] mutations driving evolution, IMNSHO.
I think living organisms, like us, or any animal, have the genetic possibility to change their structure map,
passed over to the next generation via DNA, sort of pre-design, in fact a simple system,
but the being is not normally conscious to this re-design itself.

Same if you drive a car and think of improvements, you change the design and the new one will have those improvements.
A very FAST and very SPECIFIC way to adapt.
There is a lot more to it, but it would take us way out of 'electronics design' and into how nature designs.
There is still a lot to be discovered.

I like to read about those discoveries at the cellular level, there is a lot going on there.
I even have a theory memory is stored as DNA or RNA in brain cells.
Recent test have shown the effect of changes to RNA on learning and memory:  
 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181031141545.htm

...
  

Re: fiddled filter design
On 12/11/18 17:20, John Larkin wrote:
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You really don't understand - or choose not to
understand - the concepts and ramifications of
random mutation plus natural selection.


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Like it has picked an optimum eye design for us. Not!

Not only was the FSMonster a grotty engineer, he didn't
even have a lab-book noting more successful "designs".
Thus the FSM merely repeated things, badly.


Re: fiddled filter design
On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 19:51:03 +0000, Tom Gardner

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Insults are not explanations. They aren't even discussion.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

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