zener diode question

I need to come up with a zener diode that will handle 1.0 amp of current at 12V. I currently am using two 6.8V 10 watt stud mount zeners in series mounted with insulators on a large heatsink but it's pushing it. When the current spikes to 1.0 amp the diodes get pretty hot. Since I have a bag of these diodes Would it be a problem to employ four of them in a series/parallel arrangement to attain

13.60V at 20watts? I realize that the exact voltage that each diode "clips" at might be a bit different but would that really matter? It would be a simple job to simply add one diode in parallel with each one presently there. Thanks, Lenny
Reply to
klem kedidelhopper
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Depends on exactly what the spec says, but... You're asking a 10W diode to dissipate 6.8W. That shouldn't be a problem if you keep the stud cool. Mounting twice as many diodes on the same heat sink won't change the heat sink temperature much at all. You'll save half of the junction to case thermal resistance in the package and the chip runs a little cooler. But the package will still get "pretty hot" whatever that means.

At low current, a 6.8V zener has a slight positive voltage temp coefficient, but the actual voltage may be all over the place. I'd carefully match them at rated current.

Better solution would be a bigger heat sink or a fan. Better insulators? Two heat sinks and no insulators?

Reply to
mike

"klem kedidelhopper"

** All you need is a NPN power transistor and a 6.2 V zener:

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Got any old 2N3055s lying about ?

Easily make a 50W zener with one.

... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

My question is why use shunt regulation in the first place.

Also true about the "pass" transistor, any transistor of suitable ratings w ill work and most likely help solve any thermal problems. It doesn't even m atter if it is NPN or PNP. Works both ways.

The only reason to use shunt regulation is if you expect spikes which shoul d be clamped. This can happen in an automotive application for example by j ust having loose or dirty battery cables, or any electrical fittings betwee n the alternator (generator) and the load. This porblem is compunded these days by the fact that a modern fuel injected car with multiple coils (a coi l pack)pulls a hell of alot of current to just run. Have any idea what a he ated O2 sensor pulls ? what's more a car might have three or four of them. That is on top of an injector for every cylider maybe more.

The thing is I am am having a hard time imagining another situation where s uch a regulation scheme would be appropriate. If it's automotive then it is , but that has not been revealed.

Reply to
jurb6006

On Apr 16, 2:12 am, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

will work and most likely help solve any thermal problems. It doesn't even matter if it is NPN or PNP. Works both ways.

uld be clamped. This can happen in an automotive application for example by just having loose or dirty battery cables, or any electrical fittings betw een the alternator (generator) and the load. This porblem is compunded thes e days by the fact that a modern fuel injected car with multiple coils (a c oil pack)pulls a hell of alot of current to just run. Have any idea what a heated O2 sensor pulls ? what's more a car might have three or four of them . That is on top of an injector for every cylider maybe more.

such a regulation scheme would be appropriate. If it's automotive then it is, but that has not been revealed.

Yes this is related to my post of several months ago. I employed Arfa's suggestion of using two of my 6.8V 10 watt zeners in series to make a 13.6 V diode. And from my previous discussion this was then put in series with the rectified 24VAC, (39VDC) to drop the voltage to the input of my 12V regulator to a safer level. These two diodes were mounted with insulators and silicone grease on a large old black aluminum heat sink that I pulled out of a 1960's Delco automobile radio. With the diodes in the circuit the voltage to the input of the regulator was 19VDC, and under full load it was 16.5VDC, which is just about where I wanted it to be. The only problem is that the diodes as well as the heat sink were getting extremely hot when the regulator was fully loaded, (1.0Amp). In the interest of survivability assessment for my test I ran the unit overnight. So I added more aluminum and beefed up the contact of the heat sink to the mounting surface. Now the heat sink runs cooler however the diodes are still too hot to hold a finger on at full load. This surprises me. If I had good contact with the heat sink shouldn't IT be warmer than the semiconductor mounted to it? The thought now occurs to me that since I had to use plastic insulators from the junk box between the diodes and the heat sink they may not be providing suitable thermal conductivity, and this could also be a problem. I tried to buy a couple of suitable insulating diode mounting kits for DO-4 devices that would provide good thermal contact with the heat sink but I couldn't find a source for them. My distributor couldn't find any and NTE doesn't seem to sell them separately. I remember in my previous post that you had suggested a transistor arrangement last time Jamie, but you're correct in that I didn't fully understand what you were referring to at the time. Now that Phil has provided the schematic it seems quite clear. Thanks Phil. I could certainly try that arrangement too but after putting this all down on paper, (so to speak), now I guess I'm wondering. What if thermal conductivity between my diodes and my now massive heat sink is my problem? My junk box mounting hardware certainly could be suspect. Perhaps I should try to obtain the correct insulators and then reassess this heat issue. Does anyone have a source for them? The diodes are 1N2970B stud mount. Thanks, Lenny

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Reply to
klem kedidelhopper

will work and most likely help solve any thermal problems. It doesn't even matter if it is NPN or PNP. Works both ways.

be clamped. This can happen in an automotive application for example by just having loose or dirty battery cables, or any electrical fittings between the alternator (generator) and the load. This porblem is compunded these days by the fact that a modern fuel injected car with multiple coils (a coil pack)pulls a hell of alot of current to just run. Have any idea what a heated O2 sensor pulls ? what's more a car might have three or four of them. That is on top of an injector for every cylider maybe more.

such a regulation scheme would be appropriate. If it's automotive then it is, but that has not been revealed.

I've lost the original context. If the transformer has the secondary on the outside, removing almost half the turns is a better solution in several dimensions.

A heat sink that's actually sinking heat is always colder than the device it's sinking. Measuring the temperature is often more helpful than "extremely hot". My calculator doesn't have a key for that.

Bottom line is that it appears that every part of your system is unsuitable for the function it needs to perform. Hang them together and you get something that sorta works. There is no magic fix.

Reply to
mike

The stud package devices are supposed to be directly mounted to the heatsink metal (if the heatsink is electrically isolated) or mounted on mica insulators to transfer heat. The plastic insulators I'm familiar with (look like nylon or PE/PP material) don't transfer heat. Maybe you could use some TO-220 or other insulators to cut out some discs. The glass-impregnated rubber insulators would be better than the present plastic ones. Use plastic bushing washers under the nuts if isolation is required.

It seems like a good idea to use parts that one has lying around, but there are 3-terminal regulators that are capable of 5A readily available in most common voltages. Dropping 39V to 13.6V is a large span for a 3-terminal regulator, so a lower output transformer would be more practical.

Transistor regulator circuits have been used for a long time, because they were effective and cheaper, even after 3-terminal regulators became available. Everything from hobbiest PSUs to large industrial equipment commonly had transistor regulators.

-- Cheers, WB .............

"klem kedidelhopper" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@r4g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...

Yes this is related to my post of several months ago. I employed Arfa's suggestion of using two of my 6.8V 10 watt zeners in series to make a 13.6 V diode. And from my previous discussion this was then put in series with the rectified 24VAC, (39VDC) to drop the voltage to the input of my 12V regulator to a safer level. These two diodes were mounted with insulators and silicone grease on a large old black aluminum heat sink that I pulled out of a 1960's Delco automobile radio. With the diodes in the circuit the voltage to the input of the regulator was 19VDC, and under full load it was 16.5VDC, which is just about where I wanted it to be. The only problem is that the diodes as well as the heat sink were getting extremely hot when the regulator was fully loaded, (1.0Amp). In the interest of survivability assessment for my test I ran the unit overnight. So I added more aluminum and beefed up the contact of the heat sink to the mounting surface. Now the heat sink runs cooler however the diodes are still too hot to hold a finger on at full load. This surprises me. If I had good contact with the heat sink shouldn't IT be warmer than the semiconductor mounted to it? The thought now occurs to me that since I had to use plastic insulators from the junk box between the diodes and the heat sink they may not be providing suitable thermal conductivity, and this could also be a problem. I tried to buy a couple of suitable insulating diode mounting kits for DO-4 devices that would provide good thermal contact with the heat sink but I couldn't find a source for them. My distributor couldn't find any and NTE doesn't seem to sell them separately. I remember in my previous post that you had suggested a transistor arrangement last time Jamie, but you're correct in that I didn't fully understand what you were referring to at the time. Now that Phil has provided the schematic it seems quite clear. Thanks Phil. I could certainly try that arrangement too but after putting this all down on paper, (so to speak), now I guess I'm wondering. What if thermal conductivity between my diodes and my now massive heat sink is my problem? My junk box mounting hardware certainly could be suspect. Perhaps I should try to obtain the correct insulators and then reassess this heat issue. Does anyone have a source for them? The diodes are 1N2970B stud mount. Thanks, Lenny

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Reply to
Wild_Bill

"Arfa Daily"

** A TO3 device has a large surface area.

A DO4 stud device has almost none unless you include the thread.

So it is blindingly obvious that for best heatsinking, you screw them into a threaded hole.

The heatsink may then need to be insulated from other metal work.

This is how all high power stud diodes zeners must be mounted, if you wish to get anything like the maker's power ratings.

Fuck head.

... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

"Wild_Bill"

** The difference is HUGE.

... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

"klem kedidelhopper" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@r4g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...

On Apr 16, 2:12 am, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Yes this is related to my post of several months ago. I employed Arfa's suggestion of using two of my 6.8V 10 watt zeners in series to make a 13.6 V diode. And from my previous discussion this was then put in series with the rectified 24VAC, (39VDC) to drop the voltage to the input of my 12V regulator to a safer level. These two diodes were mounted with insulators and silicone grease on a large old black aluminum heat sink that I pulled out of a 1960's Delco automobile radio. With the diodes in the circuit the voltage to the input of the regulator was 19VDC, and under full load it was 16.5VDC, which is just about where I wanted it to be. The only problem is that the diodes as well as the heat sink were getting extremely hot when the regulator was fully loaded, (1.0Amp). In the interest of survivability assessment for my test I ran the unit overnight. So I added more aluminum and beefed up the contact of the heat sink to the mounting surface. Now the heat sink runs cooler however the diodes are still too hot to hold a finger on at full load. This surprises me. If I had good contact with the heat sink shouldn't IT be warmer than the semiconductor mounted to it? The thought now occurs to me that since I had to use plastic insulators from the junk box between the diodes and the heat sink they may not be providing suitable thermal conductivity, and this could also be a problem. I tried to buy a couple of suitable insulating diode mounting kits for DO-4 devices that would provide good thermal contact with the heat sink but I couldn't find a source for them. My distributor couldn't find any and NTE doesn't seem to sell them separately. I remember in my previous post that you had suggested a transistor arrangement last time Jamie, but you're correct in that I didn't fully understand what you were referring to at the time. Now that Phil has provided the schematic it seems quite clear. Thanks Phil. I could certainly try that arrangement too but after putting this all down on paper, (so to speak), now I guess I'm wondering. What if thermal conductivity between my diodes and my now massive heat sink is my problem? My junk box mounting hardware certainly could be suspect. Perhaps I should try to obtain the correct insulators and then reassess this heat issue. Does anyone have a source for them? The diodes are 1N2970B stud mount. Thanks, Lenny

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You might be better off using 2 heatsinks, bolting the zeners straight onto them, and then isolating the heatsinks rather than the Zeners.

Gareth.

Reply to
Gareth Magennis

Something there doesn't ring true - at full load, your load is forcing down the voltage and easing below the zener's conduction voltage.

The zeners should run cooler when you draw full load!

Reply to
Ian Field

Read what you replied to. The Zeners are in series, not shunt so you have it backwards. The current & heat go up with increased loading.

Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

work and most likely help solve any thermal problems. It doesn't even matter if it is NPN or PNP. Works both ways.

be clamped. This can happen in an automotive application for example by just having loose or dirty battery cables, or any electrical fittings between the alternator (generator) and the load. This porblem is compunded these days by the fact that a modern fuel injected car with multiple coils (a coil pack)pulls a hell of alot of current to just run. Have any idea what a heated O2 sensor pulls ? what's more a car might have three or four of them. That is on top of an injector for every cylider maybe more.

a regulation scheme would be appropriate. If it's automotive then it is, but that has not been revealed.

My god.

Jamie

Reply to
Jamie

**The zeners are in SERIES with the load.
--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au
Reply to
Trevor Wilson

He's too ignorant to even consider the poor contact for a TO-3 with two tiny screws on the ends, VS a 1/4x20 stud which can be torqued down to give much better heat transfer.

Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

vet

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zer

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I thought that I mentioned though that isolating the heat sink was not an option. I think I can explain this a little better. The fins of the heat sink are spaced about .50 inch apart. Between the fins are large aluminum blocks I fashioned which increase the surface mating area. These blocks are then mounted to two back to back pieces of .125 inch aluminum each having a surface area of about 12 square inches. This large contact area and equivalent thick piece of aluminum then bolts to the chassis, It is these two pieces of stock which are the "middle" of the sandwich, so to speak. The steel chassis also aids with sinking some of the heat as well. Also as previously mentioned both diodes are mounted on the heat sink so they must be isolated from each other. There is also a thin coating of silicone grease on every mating surface. One alternative to that would have been to use one reverse polarity diode, (which I don't have), but then I would still have to "float" the heat sink and it would be very impractical to try to hang all this extra aluminum off the heat sink and come up with a useable mounting method too. So this seemed like the best arrangement. Lenny

Reply to
klem kedidelhopper

That became clear in another part of the thread - I never imagined anyone would do it that way!

Reply to
Ian Field

Using a pair of CPU coolers would give isolation - some have clip on fans, so the top mounting flange is available with 4 holes for mounting.

Reply to
Ian Field

vet

You need near mirror finish to get ideal heat transfer between those pieces of aluminum.

The stud mount package with the proper mica insulators & washers can be torqued a lot tighter than TO-3 packages.

Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

That way, or strings of rectifiers have both been used in the past when the transformer voltage was a little too high.

Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

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