Re: How does the typical mains power connect in the USA anyway?

Hmm. My vague memory of storage batteries says that ions migrate from one pole to the other through the electrolyte, then combine with electrons arri ving through the return wire to balance the charge. At least, I'm pretty s ure it was explained that way in school, which was admittedly 50 plus years ago.

It seems rather unlikely to me that the electron moving down the wire, howe ver slowly, comes to a full stop in the load. Wouldn't the rest back up be hind it?

I'm sure Phil will be back shortly to tell us how stupid we are, but to avo id explaining what the correct version is.

Not being a EE, my classes covered the macro level of how wires connect, bu t not what is really happening at the atomic level, and I'm finding it inte resting.

DC path through a modern audio power amplifier with 2 power supplies and no ground.

Wild_Bill forklarede:

Do you suggest electrons are being used and disappear in the load?

That would leave the power generating companies with a large waste problem of all the ions, atoms with too few electrons.

Leif

Leif, I think what he's really trying to say, probably, is that electricity is not actually the flow of electrons, but a wave that rides on top of a slow flow of electrons.

The electrons of course do return in a DC system, or jiggle in place if an AC, but the wave itself may dissipate in a load.

And I think that's probably right, but insufficiently detailed. There must be some change to the electrons.

One problem with his idea of complete dissipation in the load is that it would imply you couldn't add another load in series. That would end Christmas as we know it, with light strings on the tree.

After shuffling across the carpet in your slippers, a spark is created when you touch a doorknob.

Following the flawed concept of "return" as a circuit concept, the spark goes where? It travels thru a wooden door, it's hinges, the door frame, building structure etc, to earth ground?

Or, is the spark injected into the human, from a resulting high ground potential? Ground, (often mistakenly understood as having zero/no potential) is lurking in doorknobs waiting to zap some unsuspecting doofus.

IIRC, most everything is made up of electrons.. adding or removing electrons changes the characteristcs of the material.

My point is that the term and concept of "return" as used in electrical circuits isn't based in reality. Nothing is beng returned to the source, the power is dissipated/expended by the load.

Looking at a hydraulic circuit, one can easily see the purpose of the return line. Electrical circuits don't operate the same way, the term "return" is only a feeble attempt at comparing electricity to liquids.

-- Cheers, WB .............

Hmm. My vague memory of storage batteries says that ions migrate from one pole to the other through the electrolyte, then combine with electrons arriving through the return wire to balance the charge. At least, I'm pretty sure it was explained that way in school, which was admittedly 50 plus years ago.

It seems rather unlikely to me that the electron moving down the wire, however slowly, comes to a full stop in the load. Wouldn't the rest back up behind it?

I'm sure Phil will be back shortly to tell us how stupid we are, but to avoid explaining what the correct version is.

Not being a EE, my classes covered the macro level of how wires connect, but not what is really happening at the atomic level, and I'm finding it interesting.

conducting materials like copper, silver, gold etc. have atoms with lots of electrons, so much so that it's easy to knock them off, they have a very loose bond with the atom. This is how electrons flow, when you add and electron it causes the atom to disperse an electron to the next atom. In other words the electrons are so loosely bonded that the atom can not hold another electron, it has to spit another out. If there is no one at the other end pulling out electrons, then you have charge building up! Things get messy then if it gets excessive :)

Insulators work the other way, they accept electrons as charge because the atoms have much fewer electrons and are tightly bonded. However, as charge increases, so do the electrons around the atoms, at some point you'll start getting leakage. Under AC, this moving in/out can also cause heating ( not to get confused with eddy currents)

Thats enough today, I tried to keep it basic.

Jamie

Your tree lights are most likely added in parallel when there is a receptacle at the end of the first string, plugging anything else into the free hanging receptacle end would be a parallel connection (assuming real incandescent lamps). It's easy to assume that it may loook like a series of lights without it actually being a series wired circuit.

If four 12V lamps are wired in series and the 2 power leads are connected to a 12V source, the lights will share the 12v equally, making them very dim.

If the same four lamps are connected in parallel, and also to 12V by 2 power leads, they all will illuminate at full brightness (and 4x the current of 1 lamp).

Although series or parallel still doesn't matter in common circuits, as there is still 2 power leads, one wire with a different potential than the other, connected to the source in either case.

Loads in homes/buildings are commonly parallel connected to the power source.

Pick up a DIY book on basic building wiring installation to see how loads are connected in a service panel. If you can ignore the bullshit about the earth/planet being used as a conductor, and the use of the term "return", you'll be able to gain a good understanding of utility electrical power as it pertains to 120 and 240VAC circuits.

Ah ha! We've found the Grinch. It's easy to see you've never had a string of Christmas tree lights that didn't work because one light had burned out somewhere in the middle of the string, and you have to check every light t o find it. I used that example because it's one of the most common example s of a series circuit.

Yes, I understand loosely bound electrons and basic wiring. I don't unders tand at the atomic level how the energy gets sucked out of the stream of el ectrons nor what change is made to that stream.

I've seen a lot of series string Christmas lights. They run a third wire from the plug to the outlet.

I haven't been in a rural enough area in years to even look for one. The fact that it isn't common doesn't mean that it doesn't still exist. Some farms were 20 miles from the nearest highway, on a private dirt or clay road. They were electrified by either a co-op or the TVA and 20 miles of copper wire was expensive.

Yes, the ground resistance has to be low enough to prevent gradient voltages from killing people or animals.