will automatically take over any other which fails.
No, they're cold standbys that can be "swapped in" with power on ("hot"). RAID ("mirrors") will take over automatically on failure, but again, they don't solve the "loose nut" problem.
One of the simple solutions is to have a mirrored setup with additional mirror drives left off-line. To do a backup, one connects one of the off-line drives and the system builds a "clone" of the original drive on the "backup" drive. Then take that drive off line and put it out of the reach of the loose nut (fire, system crash, whatever). TO restore the system, simply reconnect the mirrored drive and rebuild the system drive as a mirror of the "backup" drive.
I do something functionally the same, but don't use RAID of any sort. I back up my laptop (using the supplied utility) once a week to a USB drive that's online whenever I'm docked (also used for music archives, etc.), then copy that drive to another USB drive once in a while.
will automatically take over any other which fails.
Err.... so how does that differ from me having several spare drives sat on the shelf that I can put in when required? I thought the idea was these were put online AUTOMATICALLY. The option I saw to add a hotswap on one of my raid controllers seemed to imply that I'd set up one of the drives that was plugged in to be one.
Correction - I meant to write a hot SPARE, not a hot SWAP.
That's a good idea. Although I wouldn't do it with a cheapo onboard controller. Those things fall over sometimes when drives "fail".
Trouble is, the machine I'm about to build is planned to have 4 drives in a RAID
5 array for speed aswell as resilience. How would I back this up in that manner? I suppose I'd need 8 drives - a mirrored RAID 5?
I have three machines on a network on all the time. So the main one is backed up to the other two automatically every night. Every so often I use a USB drive to dump one of the backup copies onto and hide it out of reach of the computers.
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It does however put you in a good bargaining position.
which will automatically take over any other which fails.
(Your word wrap is broken.)
No, "hot swap" has nothing to do with backup. If you have spare drives sitting on the shelf they're not much use when your data goes away. You *can* use the hot-swap feature with a RAID array to do a backup by having the array perform the mirror then unplug the drive and stick it on the shelf. By itself, hot-swap doesn't do anything for you.
Why would your spare need to be "hot"? I think we're talking past each other...
Huh? "Cheapo" RAID controllers are nothing more than *ATA ports. If a drive fails you still have the other. With "my" proposal you still have one "hot" and another, with the backup data, sitting on the shelf. The *ATA controllers haven't gone anywhere.
Don't do RAID-5. If you want speed do Raid 1/0. You're going to need two drives for the striped pair though. I wouldn't run a striped set though. Too much risk with too little gain.
We have two systems (our laptops) that get backed up to USB drives. The desktop never gets backed up (nothing important ever gets put on it). I don't lose sleep over losing data and can't be bothered with the network.
I haven't counted for a while, but I think I have about 50 customers (those that call for work more than once per year) involving about 150 machines. Pre-emptive drive replacement has totally prevented drive failures, and the attendent all night restore session. However, it also has produced in a rather motly collection of "used" drives, mostly 10 thru 40GBytes. They still work, but being past their prime, they're not suitable for use in a customers machine. I use them for backups, but that's also risky if I run into one of those failures that isn't dependent on running the drive. With 4 years runtime on these drives, they're sure to fail within about 2-3 years of normal use. I sell a few, with the usual disclaimer and non-warranty, but after having to deal with a few irate former friends, I just stockpile them. Anything where S.M.A.R.T. shows a climbing error rate, gets recycled.
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How does one access the S.M.A.R.T. data? (You don't need to explain, just point.)
I was planning on making my initial installation of XP on a lightly used drive I'd put a "vanilla" installation of 2000 on, so I could de-crap my regular drive of malware. (I don't know how I was able to boot them simultaneously without screwing up things, but I did.) Perhaps I'll just buy a new drive right off the bat, and when XP is fully installed, get a second drive.
which will automatically take over any other which fails.
YOU wrap it. I don't kow the width of your monitor.
I assume it's a drive which the system can bring into play as needed, immediately one fails.
If they were nothing more than *ATA ports, you couldn't make a RAID array with them.
My point is I've (more than once) seen ONE drive fail, then the controller is incapable of using a degraded array and corrupts everything.
Do you mean RAID 1+0? As in a striped mirror? Why would this be faster than a RAID 5?
The network is automatic. It's no hassle at all once it's set up.
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A Russian, an American, and a Blonde were talking one day.
The Russian said, "We were the first in space!"
The American said, "We were the first on the moon!"
The Blonde said, "So what? We\'re going to be the first on the sun!"
The Russian and the American looked at each other and shook their heads.
"You can\'t land on the sun, you idiot! You\'ll burn up!" said the Russian.
To which the Blonde replied, "We\'re not stupid, you know. We\'re going at night!"
I use a Windoze program called "SpeedFan". (Click on the SMART tab):
It produces a gorgeous web page report, warning of impending doom, that's suitable for shoving down the customers throat.
For Linux, I use SmartmonTools:
which is more detailed, but kinda messy.
The easy way to test older drives is with a USB to IDE (or SATA) adapter. For 3.5" drives, you need to supply power to the drive. I can run through a mess of drives in literally minutes by simply plugging and unplugging the USB cable, while swapping drives. Much easier than trying to test drives inside the machine.
Note that some drives report garbage or lies for S.M.A.R.T. I don't want to post my list of suspected culprits. Just note that any drive that reports absolute perfection, that's also obviously old, is lying.
Careful with the 2nd drive. If it's the slave off a different model IDE master drive, the slave sometimes runs slower, or slows down the main drive. Run some drive benchmarks on the main drive alone, and then with the slave attached. A 2nd external (USB) drive is just fine. Get an external case and you have a tolerable "backup" drive.
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Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
which will automatically take over any other which fails.
No, the standard is to wrap it at something less than 80 chars. Not wrapping text is *rude*.
immediately one fails.
Hot swap simply means that another can be brought on line while the system is powered on. It doesn't mean the drive has anything on it. Mirroring is a method of putting the backup data on the drive.
them.
Wrong. Ever hear of "software"? Every one of those RAID controllers is nothing more than an ATA port and some software. Some had the software in a ROM, but not that's not common anymore. Often the OS ships with the necessary drivers. The hardware is nothing but an *ATA port though.
incapable of using a degraded array and corrupts everything.
With striping I can believe this. If it's mirrored simply use the other drive (not stored in the system).
a RAID 5?
Yes, call it whatever you want. RAID-5 requires work to do the redundancy. Mirroring requires little CPU overhead. It's just stuffing bits.
Nothing is "automatic". It requires management. Too much bother when IDE drives are *cheap*.
which will automatically take over any other which fails.
Not a lot of people still have 80 column screens. Yours might be 120 for example. Your software should wrap my text at 120. If you make the window a bit smaller, it'll wrap to 100, etc. Even Notepad can wrap to window!!!
immediately one fails.
But it gives you added protection, because as soon as one drive fails, the hotswap drive is brought into use, not when you notice it and physically put one in.
with them.
If it was entirely OS software, booting the OS would be impossible.
incapable of using a degraded array and corrupts everything.
They were RAID 5 arrays.
a RAID 5?
Perhaps. But consider my new system - I want 4 hard disks. If I use RAID 1+0, then when writing, I'm splitting the drive's work by a factor of 2. When reading I'm splitting it by a factor of 4. If I use RAID 5, when writing I'm splitting the drive's work by a factor of 3, when reading I'm splitting the work by a factor of 3. Depends whether reading is more important than writing.
Also I get 50% more capacity. Which also means the data I store will be closer together on the platters, speeding the drives' seek time up.
I've just looked up some graphs and it appears 1+0 is the best way for performance. The parity calculations are perhaps the problem like you said.
The question I now have is.... if I'm using 1+0, there's no calculations to do, so is there any advantage to me getting a powerful raid controller card, or will the onboard controller do just as well?
I've just checked, and it appear it does support 1+0 (some don't).
formatting link
It requires management ONCE when I set up the schedule. From then on it does it at 3am every night, without my intervention.
drives which will automatically take over any other which fails.
example. Your software should wrap my text at 120. If you make the window a bit smaller, it'll wrap to 100, etc. Even Notepad can wrap to window!!!
Don't be an asshole. It runs it right off the right edge. I'm not going to clean up your mess again. If you can't conform to the minimal Usenet standards, you aren't worth speaking with. *PLONK*
"Peter Hucker" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@fx62.mshome.net:
Doesn't matter. See below.
There is a problem with people that insist that THEY have a special dispensation to violate long established rules of the road, like the long established usenet rule of the road that says 'thou shalt wrap thine text at less than 76 before you rap on usenet, otherwise other usenet users will consider you a kook and will soon cease to see anything you post because you will earn a permanent place in their killfiles.'
[quote from
formatting link
]
Make sure your lines are no longer than 72 to 76 characters in length.
Once again, you can't assume that all e-mail and news clients behave like yours, and while yours might wrap lines automatically when the text reaches the right of the window containing it, not all do.
....try and imag If your mailer/newsreader doesn't wrap outgoing messages then at least have the courtesy to do so manually before sending your message off. [unquote]
Being courteous costs little and adds to the happiness in the world.
Remember that NOTHING said on usenet is ever lost. Every smart and dumb thing we ever post is out there somewhere. Being rude might bring YOU a little pleasure but it brings unhappiness to others. Trolls enjoy being rude and the reactions being rude bring.
Is that _really_ what you want to do? Is that how you want future generations to remember you?
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bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
bz+spr@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
He is a troll, so that's exactly how he wants to be remembered.
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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you\'re crazy.
drives which will automatically take over any other which fails.
example. Your software should wrap my text at 120. If you make the window a bit smaller, it'll wrap to 100, etc. Even Notepad can wrap to window!!!
It runs off the right edge because your shoddy software isn't wrapping it. Open any word processor and start typing. Keep going till you come towards the edge. Tell me what happens next.
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"Good morning, ma\'am, I\'ve come to ask for collections, for the Salvation Army,"
said the man in the bright red Santa suit to the woman who opened the door
wearing nothing but panties and a see-through negligee.
"How do I know that?" the young woman replied. "How do I know you\'re really with
the Salvation Army? How do I know you aren\'t some sex fiend who has come to take
advantage of a poor, defenseless female who\'s all alone in her house ... and
will be until 5:30 this evening?"
If Windows Notepad can wrap, so can any email client. It's not rocket Science. My ZX Spectrum used to do it for christ's sake.
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The subway car was packed. It was rush hour, and many people were forced to
stand.
One particularly cramped woman turned to the man behind her and said,
"Sir, if you don\'t stop poking me with your thing, I\'m going to the cops!"
"I don\'t know what you\'re talking about miss - that\'s just my pay check in my
pocket."
"Oh really" she spat.
"Then you must have some job, because that\'s the fifth raise you\'ve had in the
last half hour."
Not many have 1k character screens, nor the desire to try to read fish food that long.
Trolls like to cause trouble. It's clear this troll feels no desire to make his readers' lives easier (note the same attitude among top- posters). As with everything he's ever done in his life, he failed. My life is easier without another Europeon troll.
If your computer is bright enough to wrap to window, the monitor can be ANY width.
Typical American. Because I'm in Europe, that must be the reason for everything.
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A woman goes to England to attend a 2-week, company training session. Her
husband drives her to the airport and wishes her to have a good trip.
The wife answers, "Thank you honey, what would you like me to bring for you?"
The husband laughs and says, "An English girl!"
The woman kept quiet and left.
Two weeks later he picks her up in the airport and asks, "So, honey, how was the
trip?"
"Very good, thank you".
"And, what happened to my present?".
"Which present?"
"What I asked for. The English girl!"
"Oh, that? Well, I did what I could. Now we have to wait a few months to see if
it is a girl."
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