EPROM copier/programmer advice please

Hi Eric,

It all depends on the chip. For example - 2716s - most Eprom programmers can still read those, however if you have 2532s that is harder to find a reader for. 2732s, 2764s, and later almost any inexpensive device (Wilem for example) will read those.

If you have 2708s then you will have to buy a legacy Eprom programmer to read those unless you are adept at making interface modules - you have to provide +12 and -5 for 2708s. Earlier still devices, and PROMs again need more specialized reader/programmers.

Most of the 70s games are archived and not too hard to find via MAME. Which games are you trying to back up?

Or you can talk to someone like my shop where we can read and program devices right back to 1702As so we could read your chips and give you a copy of the archive. Not free I'm afraid! Cost depends on the device read.

John :-#)#

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As John said already, the most important part is the device support. Manufacturers of various EPROM programmers will typically publish long lists of devices that their programmer is designed to support. First make sure that the devices (EPROMs) you need to read are supported by the programmer you intend to buy. Often commonly available "popular" devices were made by multiple manufacturers and were known by various similar names, so when looking up device types in a list, it may make sense to look up the other known compatible type names too. However beware that there are some devices by certain manufacturers that are known to be "quirky" and that some theoretically "compatible" devices need not always be fully compatible. In the most cases a "compatible" device will at least be compatible enough to read identically, but when it comes to programming them, beware - there be dragons in the details.

As for any particular programmer, I can't really recommend much due to the lack of experience. I've used a MiniPro TL866A in the recent past and found it to be built and working reasonably well. However, I only had recently made serial EEPROMs and Flash-PROMs to program, nothing from before the 2000s, let alone 1980s, so no experience with them. Anyway, here is the device support list of the MiniPro TL866A:

Note that some of these devices are micro controllers (AVR, PIC) with serial interfaces, for these the TL866A (but not the similar TL866CS) has an in-circuit serial programming interface available via a second port. Apart for it (the ICSP) these 2 programmers operate identically.

Dimitrij

Rule number one...if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yeah, right...

It's critically dependent on the EXACT devices you're trying to program.

If you can read the prom, you can save the data without burning a new one.

But, it's always good to fully test the process so you will know it works when you need it.

A prom that verifies in the programmer may not work in the target system at speed.

Compaq made a laptop in the 90's that had a flash bios. It would randomly quit booting. If you read the eprom slowly in the programmer and reprogrammed the same eprom with the same data you'd just read from it it would work again...until the next time it broke. Using a new eprom didn't help. They had left the program enable line floating when not in use and it would slowly degrade the bits. The lesson here is that a prom that verifies in the programmer does not guarantee a working system.

I'm a big fan of rule number one.

The machine in question is a CNC lathe with a Fanuc control. Neither Fanuc or Miyano, the lathe manufacturer, have any more EPROMs. Eric

The problem is that if it does break it will be hard to find replacements. I wanna be pro-active and have spares. Eric

So, what are the part numbers of the EPROMs? Chances are it is fairly modern, and indeed you want to archive those!

I'd archive them for you if you want to make me a small injection mold or two (ducking).

John :-#)#

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Charge retention was estimated to be over 50 years back in the early 80s

(see link article), but you are well over halfway through that period and it certainly is a good idea to archive them!

John :-#)#

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Greetings John, I'll get part numbers tomorrow and post them. All the EPROMs in my Fanuc controls are, I think, the same part. After I read the EPROMs I would also like to look at what is written in them. In particular some of them have ladders. I spoke with Miyano, who wrote the ladders for the lathe, and they don't have any records of what was written. But I'm not sure if I am going to need special software to make sense of what was written. I want to do this because the Miyano lathe didn't come with a rapid override switch or a spindle override switch. Or even a spindle stop switch that works when the lathe is running a program. These features are all options for the control and the machine tool maker decides which ones to use. The machine moves very fast in rapid, has a 15 hp spindle, and crashes are nerve wracking. This machine is the only CNC machine I have seen that does not have a rapid override. Setups with a new program always make me nervous. Thanks, Eric

So, the EPROMs hold lookup tables, that are like the old automated looms shown a long time ago on the Connections (BBC) series?

Some of the EPROMs will be operating code, others may be your ladders. Would need to know the CPU these run under - probably 8-bit like 6502 or Z80 if early 80s.

Sounds a bit fun.

A couple of fellows I knew back in the 80s and 90s had some rather large CNC lathes, and mill machines that ran on paper tape. I tried to help them keep them running but in the end I just didn't know enough (and this was prior to 1995 - the internet could have saved them) to keep them going and they shut the shop down as they could not afford newer equipment. Always felt sad about that. However Honeywell offered zero support (other than schematics) and they could not find anyone else remotely interested in trying to help. Nice guys too.

Things were different pre-1995!

John :-#(#

I understand the desire. I can't count the number of times I started with one good gizmo and one bad gizmo and ended up with two bad gizmos. Was not the desired result. Good luck.

Some companies make copies from a samplefor some "cents".

If all you want to do is read out the contents of a parallel EPROM and save it an Arduino-type uP should be good enough to do that with a little circuit design and code - hook cascaded binary counters to the address lines, hook data lines to the Arduino, step through each address one by one and log the data to PC over USB/serial connection.

You could then concatenate the data into a .bin file and use a program like Binwalk to analyze the firmware and find the code and data sections. A disassembler like Ida could probably then spit out a basic disassembly with C-like structure if the code is for a processor it supports.

I'm sure you could do everything you describe above but in this case I really need something that is basically plug and play. But thanks anyway. Eric

GEEZ! I forgot to post the EPROM part numbers. They are all 2532 devices. Most are made by TI but a couple are Hitachi. Thanks, Eric

You can find adapters designed for Commodore 64 computers to change the 2532 wiring to 2732. They can be built with a couple IC sockets and a couple jumpers.

2532s - those I think can be read by some inexpensive programmers, burning is another case as they are orphans as far as modern programmers are concerned.

You can read them as a 2732 if you make an adapter socket if your reader doesn't handle the 2532s. If you have an old 24 pin wire-wrap socket with long legs that is easy to use to bend the legs around to gain access to the data.

I have several tools that handle 2532s easily enough. Xeltek, Data I/O, Andromeda, and a few other programmers lying around the shop. However I think I am too far away to be useful to you.

John :-#)#

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        "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

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Let me see, the pins that need to be exchanged are:

2532 - Pin 21 Vpp, 18 is A11 2732 - Pin 21 is A11 and 18 is /E

So, as I recall, you just need lift pin 21 on your read adapter socket, and tie that to pin 24 (need 5V to read), then lift pin 18 of the read socket and tie it to pin 21 of the EPROM reader socket.

Clear enough?

John :-#)#

John ;-#)#

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If you change your mind someone already did the hard work of designing the hardware and writing the code here:

All you'd have to do is buy the parts and about 20 minutes of soldering, then plug in and execute the code.

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I suspect he would be nervous about building something like that where there exists the possibility of destroying an irreplaceable part. At least a commercial EPROM burner that can read 2532s is very unlikely to cause issues, a home-made one has that potential for folks that haven't done it before.

Another possible solution is for the OP to join one of the machinist forums and see if anyone else has a similar CNC lathe and has already backed up the EPROMs.

John :-#)#

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                      www.flippers.com 
        "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."