Re: Failure of Teletext in the US

1. A law was passed making it a requirement for TV broadcaster to use

> some system of captioning and TV manufacturers to incorporate decoding > circuits for captioning before Teletext took off in Europe. The US > closed captioning system predated Teletext and it was a technical > impossibility for a TV channel to incorporate both closed captioning and > Teletext simultaneously. If the broadcaster decided to incorporate > Teletext then all captioning would have to be on a Teletext page and > that would mean owners of an existing closed captioning only TV would > have to buy a Teletext TV if they wanted captions.

The US captioning system is NOT incompatible with teletext. Captioning uses only line 21; teletext (at least as implemented here) used a variable number of lines higher in the vertical interval - I want to say

13-18 but it's been a LONG time & my memory is probably wrong.

The teletext transmission standard is still used for private data transmission in the U.S.. The Canadian firm Norpak

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sells encoding and decoding equipment.

The law requiring caption decoders wasn't enacted until long after teletext failed as a consumer service. (but again that doesn't matter as it's possible to caption and run teletext at the same time)

2. The fragmented nature of the broadcasting industry compared to that > of Europe gave little incentive for broadcasters to add Teletext pages > to their channels unless there was a large enough audience with Teletext > TVs. At the same time TV manufacturers were reluctant to add Teletext > decoder circuits to all but their top of the range models because it > would force up consumer prices. A catch 22 situation in other words and > the government did not stick their fingers in to promote Teletext in any > way.

That's probably the biggest reason.

3. Teletext was seen as pointless in the US because of the proliferation > of dial up BBSs that emerged in the 80s prior to the internet. The BBSs > offered a two way communications facility rather than the one way system > of Teletext.

That's probably a significant reason too. Most U.S. telephone subscribers have unlimited local calling - a single monthly charge allows making as many calls in the local area as you want, and allows staying on the line as long as you want. I suspect this made BBSs more practical here than in Europe.

4. Teletext was developed for 625 line PAL systems and there was no > standard developed for 525 line NTSC systems because of disagreements > between various parties involved. The lack of a standard meant that > broadcasters and TV manufacturers did not know how to proceed if they > wanted to offer Teletext services.

There were two incompatible technical standards for teletext in the USA at that time. One was similar to that used for 625 PAL, the other claimed to have several improvements over the European system. (far better graphics, for one thing.)

The government made no effort to set a single standard. (Stereo AM/MW radio was introduced at about the same time - and it's widely believed the failure of the US government to set a single standard led to the failure of this innovation too.)

--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN  EM66
http://www.w9wi.com
Reply to
Doug Smith W9WI
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I don't think they're comparable, Teletext has been mainstream in millions of homes for many years, BBS's have always been a niche thing, how many 60 year olds went running of to a BBS to find a holiday package or the latest footy news?

Az.

Reply to
Aztech
[snip]

Yep - ISTR there was/is a World Systems Teletext standard for 525 regions, and there was also NABTS (North American Broadcast Text Service?) which was similar in concept to some of the enhancements to WST that were proposed but not really launched in Europe (more colours, higher resolution graphics etc.)

Didn't TBS broadcast a WST text service for quite a while?

I guses another significant difference is the broadcast landscape in the US. In the UK (and much of Europe) - broadcasting is either networked or regional rather than local. It is thus possible to easily centralise VBI services in a network HQ, with only a small number of local pages required in the main, whereas in the US broadcasting is more locally variable? I suspect that there would be an interesting debate about who recovered the advertising revenue - certainly in the UK many text pages on the commercial broadcasters contain adverts.

Steve

Reply to
Stephen Neal

Yes, that matches my recollection. I don't think NABTS stood for "North American Broadcast Text Service but sure don't recall what it *did* stand for!

We had a NABTS decoder at my previous job. Never saw WST in action but there were plenty of screen shots in the trade magazines. (and I'm a RSGB member and occasionally see screen shots of European teletext in their mag) NABTS did accomplish vastly improved graphics & color.

Yes. There was another major broadcast group that was pushing WST - I can't remember who. Setmaker Zenith was also behind it.

That's a good point. The most popular stations do relay a national network roughly half the broadcast day, and would relay the national teletext service during that period. But that would leave the teletext decoders inoperative during the other half of the day. Unless you installed a "data bridge" to strip the data from the incoming network feed and reinsert it on the outgoing programs. While that would be relatively inexpensive, there's no incentive to do it when you aren't getting a cut of the advertising revenue. (actually I don't think there ever *was* any advertising revenue here.. remember seeing a handful of promotional logos for demonstration's sake but never any actual paid advertising...)

--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN  EM66
http://www.w9wi.com
Reply to
Doug Smith W9WI

This page is rather helpful:

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Reply to
Ant

Doug Smith W9WI wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@invalid.invalid:

It's EIA-256/ITU-R BT.653, if that helps. Norpak

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says it's "North American Basic Teletext Specification." Video Demystified
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click glossary) says it's "North American Broadcast Teletext Specification." Tomato? Tomahto? Big juicy red thing to throw at bad entertainers? :) :)

One thing to keep in mind, is that most U.S. national networks already uses a pretty decent sized chunk of the VBI for stuff already. Between CC, XDS, VITS and Nielsen you are already reducing the datarate of NABTS by 1/4. Then when you consider that the networks use another 3 or 4 lines for proprietary data and if you throw in another measurement tool (Sigma or AMOL), that doesn't leave very much bandwidth for NABTS at all.

When you factor in all of the other interactive type services (Wink, EPGs, other datacasting, etc.), how is a local broadcaster supposed to decide what services to provide and where to spend money? How is the consumer supposed to know how to spend there money on decoding tools? Fragment the early adopters enough and you'll never reach enough market penetration to be successful.

Michael

--
Michael Liebman
"I sig, therefore I am."

To reply via email, remove "-DO-REI-ME" from my address.
Reply to
Michael Liebman

So it is possible for a broadcaster to transmit both Teletext and closed captioning simultaneously and for a TV to have decoding circuits for both Teletext and closed captioning.

Was that the same as the Teletext system used in Japan ?

One American TV manufacturer fitted Teletext decoders in their TVs almost as standard features. Which system did they support ?

So it was a result of the Reagan administration that liked to keeps its hands off business and let standards come about from the free market rather than from government intervention that led to the demise of Teletext as both systems killed each other.

Reply to
The Technical Manager

For better or worse there are a LOT of people by this name.

Nope, I'm originally from Milwaukee.

--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN  EM66
http://www.w9wi.com
Reply to
Doug Smith W9WI

Yes, and in the first case it was commonly done. (actually still is done)

I don't know as a fact that any TVs were ever built that had both teletext and caption decoders but there's no reason it couldn't be done.

I have no idea.

That's beyond my memory, but my bet would be it was Zenith in which case the system would be WST.

That's probably a fair statement. Though it's probably not fair to tag the blame on specific parties/individuals, as the Democrats in Congress didn't really oppose Reagan's plans.

--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN  EM66
http://www.w9wi.com
Reply to
Doug Smith W9WI

No. Closed captioning, developed by PBS, was early, but the legal requirement only came after Sears ceased to have the exclusive sales rights. The FCC mandate started in 1993, I think.

As other posters said, there were two systems, a reformated version of the PAL system using fixed sized text frames, and the Canadian system, Telidon (later NABTS), that used variable sized records and had graphics primitives and needed a microprocessor to decode it. Which at that time, late 70's, was still some serious bucks.

But there were more reasons.

  1. Teletext didn't work with VCRs, which got REALLY BIG during the critical time frame. The typical consumer VCR only has 1.5 to 2.5 MHz of video bandwidth and couldn't record it.

  1. Cable TV companies got in the way. Some of the big cable companies claimed that they only agreed to distribute the video and sound and that they had the right to strip out any network teletext and replace it with their own data. That meant that about a third of the market could be cut off.

Besides, the bandwidth sucked. The channel was only about 60 kBps and all of that was used for page refresh. Remember that it was developed back in the days before microprocessors and designed to be stupid (no local mass storage) and low cost. One last use of it that I know of was some C Band satellite channels where they used all the scan lines, without any viewable picture.

Mark Zenier snipped-for-privacy@eskimo.com Washington State resident

Reply to
Mark Zenier
[snip]

I've got a VCR that can record teletext. (Before anyone asks, ex-Radio Rentals Baird brand, model VC152LX).

Ivor

Reply to
Ivor Jones

Sorry, I sent the above before I read the post fully, I'm always doing it..! What I meant to say was my VCR will record subtitling from page 888, which is probably of more use anyway )

Ivor

Reply to
Ivor Jones

"There was another major broadcast group that was pushing WST - I can't remember who."

Taft Broadcasting, which provided the Keyfax service that common carrier SSS was piggybacking on the VBI of WTBS. (Turner had nothing to do with it, and cable viewers around Atlanta couldn't get Keyfax because the cable systems were taking WTBS off air rather than by satellite.) The same service was available OTA on Taft's WKRC-TV in Cincinnati, and Zenith offered set-top WST decoders there on a limited basis before the Digital System 3 chassis was introduced in 1986; Zenith also sold cable set-tops with WST decoders to cable operators who wanted to offer Keyfax as a pay service.

Reply to
Ed Ellers

Doug Smith, W9WI wrote.

"I don't know as a fact that any TVs were ever built that had both teletext and caption decoders but there's no reason it couldn't be done."

ITT Semiconductor offered just such a chip to TV makers in time for the 1993 line-21 mandate.

Reply to
Ed Ellers

"Ed Ellers" wrote in news:R%Y_a.115388$ snipped-for-privacy@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net:

:-) I Installed this Ceefax-like system in WKRC on PDP 11/24s IIRC. I also updated the system at one of the Chicago stations. That was back in the early 1980's. Those were the days.

Peter Whisker Logica (now LogicaCMG).

Reply to
PeterW
[posted and mailed]

PeterW wrote in news:Xns93D8A5B2099D2PeterWpublic@158.234.25.2:

The Chicago station was WFLD btw. I don't think Logica did any other American systems. The French were trying to get Antiope into the states at the time with similar poor results I think.

Peter

Reply to
PeterW

"Ed, what's the difference between 'closed caption' and page 888?."

Closed captioning uses a very slow data transmission system designed for the purpose.

Reply to
Ed Ellers

Yep - Closed Captioning survives on poor VHS recordings - and for this reason has also been deployed in the UK for pre-recorded VHS video releases. It was (and may still be) possible to purchase a closed caption decoder in the UK for this purpose (though I don't think any TVs come with the circuitry required, or at least enabled)

Steve

Reply to
Stephen Neal

Some TVs sold in Europe are PAL and NTSC switchable. They have Teletext decoders and could possibly have closed caption decoders as well. I don't know whether Teletext can be accessed when the TV is switched to NTSC mode.

What was its number ?

Reply to
The Technical Manager

This is an extremely interesting concept - that some domestic tellies may have CC decoding circuitry which just "isn't enabled". I know a

*huge* population which would worship anyone who could work out which chassis had the circuitry and how it could be enabled - Britain's deafies.

Closed caption decoders *are* still available but considering how trivial the technology must be they can be phenominally expensive. Video recorders designed to record (teletext) subtitles are also now rare (no manufacturer lists a current model). The latest "Omnidirectory" (the "Bible" on these matters) lists just two devices. The Telemole TAD150 decodes teletext subtitles from broadcasts, producing a composite output which can then be recorded - i.e. with "in vision" subtitles. It also decodes CC encoded tapes. It costs a staggering 229ukp.

The other device is the VR20 from Sarabec Ltd. This only does CC and you fit it between the VCR and telly. It is a more reasoable 45ukp.

Now, if the decoding circuitry was already in the telly, that'd save a bit of money and also (presumably) increase picture quality.

I presume the same "feature available but not enabled" thing won't apply to VCRs, but with the increasing number of S-VHS machines available at reasonable prices that's less of an issue, though I have to say that my attempts at recovering teletext from an S-VHS recording on my ageing JVC HR-S7500 were rather hit-and-miss.

Looking forward to any further investigations on this matter :-)

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Don't fight technology, live with it: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
... As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error.
Reply to
Martin Angove

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