~~Juice~~

make sandwich of aluminum-foam-copper-foam, wind on round form, vinegar should be fine.

Whatever voltage you get with one of these acid/metal layers, you can double it by adding another layer and connecting the leads of opposite polarity, triple it with 3 layers, quadruple it --- you get the idea. I have seen this done, and it's really something, where some one did what you're talking about but multiplied a couple hundred fold! The guy had like a 12 by 12 foot area of floor covered with lemons and metal electrodes and ended up getting a respectable voltage out of --- easily enough to light up small wattage light bulb, or run a van de graaf generator. That would be impressive, a van de graaf powered by a roomfull of lemons, with 6 inch long buzzing sparks and stuff! Try it ... But remember the voltage can get high!

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that tom wrote (in ) about '~~Juice~~', on Fri,

Only ONE pair, of course: ---|I---|I---|I---

This is a VERY early source of electricity - a Voltaic pile. Used in WW2 to generate 2 kV or so for a hand-held infra-red night sight.

In UK, you can get sheet zinc from builders merchants as 'flashing'. Lead flashing is no good, of course, for this sort of battery.

The device will only work if you draw very little current from it, because it has no 'depolarizer' to scavenge the hydrogen gas produced in operation.

Aluminum is passivated by its oxide layer, I'm not sure what voltage it protects against ordinarily, but I'm sure it'll kind of hinder ions from eating it.

In an electrochemical battery, the more reactive electrode is corroded away, the reaction producing heat (inefficiency) and voltage.

Heavily ionized water is what you want, any mineral acid that doesn't dissolve the plates will do. Since they do, a salt would be better used, and any will work I think. NaCl, NaSO4, NH4Cl, etc. (The latter is used in dry cells (zinc vs. carbon), as a hydrated mush with the MnO2 which oxidizes hydrogen as it forms, preventing passivation. Spare MnO2 also makes a smooth, slow burning thermite. ;)

Tim

-- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website:

wrote

change

it

from

away,

used,

used in

oxidizes

Manganese? Or are you thinking of magnesium?

double

polarity,

seen

talking

getting

wattage

impressive, a

You don't know what you're talking about. The lemon with a couple coins stuck into it will only give a few hundreds of microamps, because there's not enough surface area for the current. Same with potatoes. No, it won't light up a light bulb or vanDeGraaf generator.

No, you don't know what you're talking about. Try multiplying that a couple hundred fold.

You even said you get half a volt. Whats a half times 200? 100 volts. Hello?

Y'mean thermite? Manganese is just below zinc in reactivity, which is just below aluminum, hence it burns relatively slowly. Copper thermite I'm told is a bit more exciting... Magnesium is more reactive than aluminum, so thermite made with it burns much faster. I'd hate to see silver oxide and magnesium :o)

Tim

-- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website:

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that Tim Williams wrote (in ) about '~~Juice~~', on Sat, 12 Mar 2005:

Manganese dioxide takes the place of the ferric oxide in the standard thermite mixture, not the aluminium dust.

Very green...

Magnesium powder and sodium peroxide produced the only contretemps in my dangerous chemical career. This combination is quite (well, fairly!) OK when dry, but a drop of water....

wrote

makes a

just

told

burns

Well, in the army, we sat in the bleachers and the instructor set off a (true powdered aluminum and iron oxide) thermite grenade on top of an engine block. THe thermite melted a 'waterfall' of iron down the side if the engine. I've never heard of anything other than aluminum/iron oxide being called thermite.

When I was a member of this club

I've ground up magnesuim (actually filings) and mixed it with sulfur, and it's more of an explosion.

They say 60% zinc and 40% sulfur here

Hehe.

Oh, thermit[e] applies to any oxide reduced at very high temperatures with a more reactive metal. Popular choices are zinc, aluminum and magnesium for the reducer. Almost anything works for the other side, even sodium - apparently you can make sodium metal with magnesium and lye through such a reaction. I'm not really sure how, I guess MgO is more stable than Na2O or NaOH so the reaction proceeds, whatever the reactivities.

Heh heh.

Let's see, Zn + S = ZnS I would assume. Zn = 65.4, S = 32, ZnS = 97.4. %wt = 67% Zn.

Both are normally reducers, an oxidizer, maybe KMnO4 could really get that kickin'. But then you get two seperate reactions, Zn > ZnO and S > SO2, not really the triple threat you might expect.

Tim

-- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website:

wrote

off a

an

side

with a

for

such a

Na2O or

rockets

that

SO2, not

IIRC, the big problems with these "RRS beta" rockets were that the Z and S powder packed down so it had to be agitated before flight to fluff it up and keep it from clumping, which messed up the burn rate. I guess that's why Thiokol mixed the fuel with rubber. ;-)

And the aluminum tube that was essentially the whole rocket often became a part of the reaction, the fuel burned thru the side and the rocket lost acceleration - and it only went up a quarter mile or so.

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that Tim Williams wrote (in ) about '~~Juice~~', on Sun, 13 Mar 2005:

Yes, just like 'Miller effect' applies to any capacitive feedback case.(;-)

I think I'd need to see that. Sodium *boils* at 900 C. And the energy balance seems unlikely.

No, in that system sulfur is an oxidizer.

You are just DANGEROUS.(;-) KMnO4 looks pretty but it's POWERFUL, man! That combination could even go bang if you stared hard at it.

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote (in ) about '~~Juice~~', on Sun, 13 Mar 2005:

Using Al with Zn/S fuel shows a surprising disregard for the chemistry. Al is quite a lot more electropositive than zinc, and the protective oxide film won't work against hot sulfur. It would perhaps be better to make the body from zinc and use the aluminium in the fuel!

You might find this interesting, If you find a method to make a Dulac Dry Pile I'd like to know.

The DuLuc Dry Pile (c)1996 William J. Beaty

The Duluc Dry Pile (also called the Zamboni Pile) was an "electrostatic

battery" permanent power supply used in the early 1800s and constructed

from silver foil, zinc foil, and paper. Foil disks of 2cm dia. were

stacked up several thousand thick and then either compressed in a glass

tube with endcaps and a screw assembly, or stacked between three glass

rods with wooden endplates. Of course this is simply a Voltaic Pile, a

multi-cell electrochemical battery, albiet one with output potential in

the range of KILOVOLTS. Each cell used nearly-dry paper as electrolyte,

with zinc foil for one electrode and silver foil as the other.

You might find a diecutting printshop who might be able to turn

out the disks in large quantities. I suspect that zinc foil is hard to

find, but probably is not required. Perhaps aluminized paper and copper

foil, or even silver leaf paper can be obtained, then simply punched out

and stacked up. Or perhaps carbon paper can act as both electrolyte and

electrode, and use aluminum foil as the second electrode on each disk.

A 5ft dry pile should raise the hair of any who touch the end. Or a

shorter one could act as a "magic wand": hold one end, touch someone with

the other to charge them up, then touch their nose with your finger.

SNAP!

A book on the history of Perpetual Motion Machines showed photos of

"genuine" perpetual motion devices based on the Dry Pile. DuLuc's

version was composed of two series-connected Dry Piles operating a

pendulum electrostatic motor of the "Franklin's Bell" type. The drypile

stacks were of the 3-glass-rod variety, and had been insulated by dipping

in liquid sulfur (no plastics in 1806!) The device in the book is owned

by Dr. A.J. Croft of Oxford's Clarendon Lab. At the time of publication

of the book, this device had been tinkling away for over a century, and

the owner of the device mentioned that the clapper-bead was starting to

take on a distinct hourglass shape, and may need to be replaced in the

next few centuries! A second device by Zamboni was a perpetually rotating

"Franklin's wheel" electrostatic motor powered by two dry piles.

That was my thought, but apparently it's true.

Well yes, but on an absolute scale they both tend to reduce. You know what I mean..

Hehe ;-)

Reminds me, I need to get some, and glycerin, to light my thermite easier than torching a chunk of magnesium into submission.

Tim

-- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website:

I read in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic that Tim Williams wrote (in ) about '~~Juice~~', on Sun, 13 Mar 2005:

There isn't any real evidence that metallic K was produced by a reaction:

which is not a 'thermite-type' reaction, since that normally involves a trivalent metal oxide, although MnO2 may be included.

It *might* happen to some extent because the hydrogen escapes and that would tend to drive the reaction to the right. However, I suspect that atmospheric oxygen (and perhaps even nitrogen) participates:

The H2O escapes, of course, and the K2O may be further oxidized to KO2.

I can't help feeling that Humphry Davy would have tried reduction with Mg, before resorting to electrolysis of molten KOH.

Doubtful to me, since gas is escaping all the while. I don't know if K2O burns in air, but K metal (still hot) certainly does.

I'm going to try sodium today, I'll report back on that.

I seem to recall Ca and Mg were prepared by processing oxides with sodium or potassium and a mercury amalgam? The Hall cell wasn't invented yet at any rate.

Tim

-- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website: