I'm amazed that you took the time to tell me that you wouldn't tell me. :-)
We're just doing this to the prototypes. You'll never need to repair those.
John Muchow
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Forgot about those things. ;-)
Good ideas, thanks!
John Muchow
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We're currently using a Dremel with the rubberized wheels and they work great. But, it takes a while to do and it's easy to damage a chip. We'd love to place a drop of epoxy on the plastic packages and be done with it. :-)
John Muchow
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I'm stunned that you've never, ever purchased a product that uses a microprocessor. The manufacturers don't post the source code and that's no different IMHO than hiding chip numbers.
John Muchow
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Isn't there a chance that the acetone could affect the bond between the IC legs and the case material, i.e., some of the acetone could work its way inside and cause damage? Or is the chance of that no greater than the possibility of damaging the chip with our Dremel?
John Muchow
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Infantile...interesting choice of words. I'm finding out that this is a surprisingly emotional topic for a lot of people. Frank has brought up some great reasons for not hiding chip numbers, but there's still the problem of micros, etc.
Because of the simple design of these products (it's the unique packaging and combination of features that separates them from the competition), we'd like to slow down anyone interested in copying the design just a bit...until they come to market. Then, we can use market penetration, great pricing, great tech support, etc. to make it not profitable (we hope) for others to use our design.
It will inevitably happen, but if a few seconds of sanding (or epoxying) of our prototypes can slow this process down until the production models appear, that sounds like a damn good investment in time and money to me.
How is hiding part numbers infantile? How is using a micro without posting the source code not infantile then? I'm serious.
John Muchow
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Maybe not. The manufactor may not want anyone else to repair their product.
-- To reply, replace digi.mon with tds.net
You do realise there are simple designs that will identify most logic chips automatically?
Wouter van Ooijen
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Hiding part numbers is infantile because it is major pain in the ass for anyone trying to service the device and because it doesn't stop anyone trying to duplicate it.
It can buy you a few days at the most with the copycats and a frontrow seat in hell, reserved by anyone who have tried to service your product without full documentation and portfolio of spare parts...
With code inside micro, it's much different thing. It is still awkward for servicing, but at least it is efficient against hobbyistic copiers, so it achieves its basic goal- reasonable IP protection.
regards,
Branko
I'm astonished at the number of people on this group who are incapable of reading.
The OP said "prototypes".
...Jim Thompson
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| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Same here. I was merely responding about the difference between relying on epoxy and using codeprotected components...
Branko
On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 08:19:36 GMT, John Muchow put finger to keyboard and composed:
It's not always the same thing. For example, one can buy replacement mask ROMmed uPs for VCRs, TVs, and AV equipment. In any case, while there are legitimate reasons for using a mask ROMmed device, there is no legitimate excuse for grinding the numbers off a 7400 NAND gate, say.
- Franc Zabkar
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On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 08:12:26 GMT, John Muchow put finger to keyboard and composed:
OK, sorry, I just needed to vent. I've spent the last two decades of my life in third party maintenance and I have plenty of these kinds of war stories.
- Franc Zabkar
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On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 10:01:11 -0400, Impmon put finger to keyboard and composed:
That was my point. The manufacturer has *not* prevented me from repairing his product, so he has achieved nothing by grinding his chips.
- Franc Zabkar
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I feel the usual reason major manufacturers obliterate or house label parts is so that they can't be repaired, not to prevent duplication. Take a TV or VCR as an example. The company doesn't want them repaired as each repaired unit is a lost sale on a new, dispoable unit.
I have no issue with hiding numbers on a prototype. I find it very annoying though, trying to repair something with unlabeled parts.
What kind of product are we discussing anyhow? Are these particular parts even likely to fail in the long term?
-Chris
What I can't understand is why the original poster would be giving prototype units to people who could not be trusted? Brad PC Logic
Schematic entry and PCB design software
I saw a couple of guys cleaning graffiti off a sign once with laquer thinner, which is a lot like acetone. The sign had epoxy paint, and it shrugged off the laquer thinner like rainwater. I think the epoxy that chips are in wouldn't even notice acetone.
Fuming nitric acid, on the other hand...
-- Cheers! Rich
So, both are a PITA but because hiding chip numbers isn't as effective a method of IP protection, it's infantile?
Perhaps I'm just overreacting to the word itself.
John Muchow
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We've never had a failure of any of our electronic components in 16 years so I don't have much data to offer...we've never had to repair anything. Someone did rip off a battery connector a few years ago, but he was able to repair that one himself. :-)
We've always been ready with loaners to ship overnight and postpaid (both ways) repair service if needed though.
John Muchow
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Yea, Mark reminded about those things. :-) We've got some chips that aren't 74/54 (and similar series) logic chips (they're analog).
If I'm not mistaken, can they use the testers in-circuit? We'd surely notice if anything was removed and soldered back in again.
We are only looking for a bit more time here, not long-term protection from copying. We figured that a couple of minutes with the prototypes is worth it just to make any copycats with the right equipment really have to earn their keep.
Any day I can aggravate someone who wants to steal our designs for commercial use is a good day.
John Muchow
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