Re: SPARTAN-3 vs. VIRTEX-II

> > >Again, I don't think you are reading what I am posting. In the XC3S400 > > >there are almost 7200 FFs and LUTs. So there are nearly 3600 LUTs > > >capable of being RAMs and SRs. How many do you really need??? That is > > >56,000 bits of distributed RAM, almost a quarter as much as the block > > >rams! Don't you need some LUTs to use as logic??? > > > > The wider address rams will require external muxing/control to > > implement with only 4 LUTs/CLB usable as ram rather than 8. > > That is my poit of view. I don´t care (not much) of having just half > of the LUTs confurable as memory (I´ve read what you wrote, Rick), but > I didn´t like loosing those dual ported bigger blocks (you didn´t read > carefully what I wrote). To have the same function I'll need a lot of > additional logic and/or a clock two times faster. So, my DSP designs > need a lot of more CLBs in Spartan3 than in Virtex2, and I'm not Ray. > > Luiz Carlos Oenning Martins > KHOMP Solutions

You can feel how you wish about your designs, but even the loss of the

64 bit dual ports and the 128 bit single port rams is not signficant. To make a 64 bit dual port RAM requires 8 LUTs for ram (same as in VII) and one LUT for the read mux and possibly two more LUTs for the WEs. But if this is part of a larger ram block you are making half of the WEs would have been required anyway. So it is not a "large" amount of logic, just a bit more.

If you are making really large blocks where the longer runs on the address and data can slow it down significantly, then you likely are better off with the block rams.

Considering the much lower price of the XC3S parts, all this sounds to me like a benefit, not a liability. Think of it as paying for the LUTs that have RAM and getting the other LUTs for free :)

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Rick "rickman" Collins

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rickman
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Ok, I agree with you, it´s not to much logic. But because these extra delays maybe I have to duplicate the circuits.

No, they are not large blocks, but I have 128 to 512 FIR filters (256 coefs) running in parallel, and the sampling rate is 2 megaHertz. Throughput!

I'm not complaining, and I know that Xilinx wil not make a special Spartan3 just for me. But I have the right to express what I think, and maybe I'm not alone. Maybe there are a lot of Luizes and Rays, maybe Xilinx will hear us and maybe, at these nanometer scales where the pads are so big, to have all the CLBs configurable as memory is not so significant in silicon area.

Luiz Carlos Oenning Martins KHOMP Solutions

Reply to
Luiz Carlos

Yes, certainly you have the right to express your views and to let Xilinx know what you need. But I think you are responding to the idea that "something" is missing without knowing for sure if it is really an issue. When you say above that adding the level of logic may slow down the design, you first need to know how fast these parts run. After all, you are comparing 90 nm Spartan 3s to 150 nm VirtexIIs. It is very possible that the S3s will run faster even with the added delays.

I am sorry if my "nagging" is annoying. But I have watched a lot of changes in FPGAs and have often felt they were not for the better. But somewhere around the Virtex or VirtexII parts I started to realize that I needed to forget about how the parts were different and focus on how to solve my design problems using them. With that I have come to understand that often what I saw as a limitation is more than made up for in other areas. I am sure that Xilinx does not remove functionality without considering the trade offs very seriously.

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Rick "rickman" Collins

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Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
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rickman

similar.

I am not looking for champagne on a beer budget, but I would sure like to be able to pour them both into the same glass. That is I would like to have one footprint that I an put a Spartan into for low cost or a Virtex when I need high performance and large size.

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Rick "rickman" Collins

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Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
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Reply to
rickman

Peter --

I have no problem with the fact that these are 2 seperate product lines which target 2 different needs, but when Xilinx states that "Spartan-3 is basically Virtex-II, but whith a few things missing", I think Xilinx ought to be considerate of it's customers and enumerate EXACTLY what those ".... few things missing" are. To paraphrase John Cooley (Synopsys & EDA Gadfly): Customers can accept virtually any truth about a product as long as they don't have to find out about it painfully.

I'm not asking for "champagne on a beer budget". What I am saying is: I've spent a good amount of time studying champagne (Virtex-II), but I don't have a lot of time right now to study beer (Spartan-3) from scratch. Since Xilinx claims to be making beer by subtracting a few things from champagne, Xilinx can save me a LOT OF TIME by just telling me what those few subtractions are, and then I can quickly figure out if beer is what I need. My management is experiencing a little sticker shock right now at the cost of champagne, but if I get them hooked on the cost of beer, and we discover that beer can't quite satisfy our tastes 6 months from now, that will be an enormous source of grief & embarrassment that I want to avoid.

Can you comment on my list? Additions? Corrections?

similar.

Reply to
William LenihanIii

As has been said before in the group, one of the best features of Xilinx datasheets was the section on 'how this part differs from the last generation.' Is that too complex for management to get it?

Reply to
Tim

French champagne, please! :)

Luiz Carlos

Reply to
Luiz Carlos

It doesn't look like (using the projected speeds for MicroBlaze).

It's ok. Maybe some day we can take a drink and talk about this. Better, let's invite Peter, he can pay that french champagne! (I like beer too) :)

Luiz Carlos

Reply to
Luiz Carlos

Isn't that a bit of redneck perspective -champagne in Budweiser glass ? ;o)

Reply to
BRANE-NEWS

That's what we call a Fredneck around here... :)

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Rick "rickman" Collins

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rickman

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