Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them

wait

Actually, it's spoken like someone that lives in a country that has strong labor laws to protect the workers. Not like someone that lives in the US within an "employment at will" state. You'll have to forgive him as he doesn't know how things work over here. AIUI, he also doesn't have to purchase health insurance either.

--------------------------- Dutch Labor Law

One of the most misunderstood and, consequently, unnecessarily mistrusted aspects of doing business in the Netherlands is the seemingly over-protective labor laws. Dutch regulations with regard to terminating are more restrictive than those of most States in America. In fact, after a trial period of at most two years, most employees acquire certain rights to their job. The employer has to ask the labour bureau or court for permission to fire an employee. The process can take months and usually involves substantial severance pay.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Doesn't sound much like here, does it?

way

I'm a

year

All too common, I'm afraid. :-( This friend of mine has a track record of wearing blinders and then being run over by reality. He is a specialist in some system called Xycor, that's all he knows. He's doomed, he just doesn't know it yet.

Need any help?

Please list some names, so the world knows about it.

Here are some, according to this web page of unknown accuracy:

AFAIK, products of prison labor are, in general, prohibited from international trade, so it's a domestic problem (wherever the prisons are).

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

I think you're exaggerating. While the average standard of living is probably trending downward (or maybe just not rising as quickly as before), the US is still extremely comfortable and stable compared to most of the world.

My personal strategy is to make up my mind whether or not an engineering profession is long-term viable in the US, and if not, decide how to proceed. It might mean learning a new skill that won't outsource, or it might mean following the jobs where ever they end up.

As trite as this sounds, I recommend the book "Who Moved My Cheese". Don't buy it, just grab a latte and read it in the store. Or if you feel in a darker mood, try "The Grapes of Wrath".

Kelly

I bought an HP Laserjet 4L in 1995. It's on toner cartridge #3 (a Xerox cartridge, by the way; they're about $15 less than HP (and Hecho de Mexico)). I have no idea how many pages it's printed (the counter in this model resets when it's unplugged), but I must have bought close to 20 reams of paper for it.

I have a 4-year old Canon BJ printer, still on the original print cartridge (Canon uses separate tanks for each color and black, so I'm not tossing $40 of plastic out just because my son decided to print his drawing of a solid red train against a solid blue background).

I refuse to spend real money on a digital camera until there is one that takes as good an image as my 70's vintage Minolta SLR, and costs the same as that SLR cost me then (adjusted for inflation, of course). In the meantime, I bought one for $1.00 on Ebay because it is no longer SOTA.

Don't blame the new HP; they're just dancing to Wal-Mart's tune, and Wal-Mart is simply giving the US consumer what they ask for, namely cheaply made junk at Always Low Prices(TM).

With the warmer weather finally set to make an appearance here in the Northeast, has anyone else noticed the piles of air conditioners in supermarkets and drugstores? All with an EER of 9.7, the LOWEST efficiency allowed on the US market? Five minutes at

will give you a page-long list of more efficient models, but GOD FORBID the American consumer should spend $20 more (all of which will be paid back by the end of the cooling season in lower electric bills).

Agilent, Tek, etc. are all faced with a US market that requires equipment under ($3,000? $10,000?) because that's all managers can approve spending without giving up a kidney. And, they're selling into a market that is simply AWASH in perfectly good used equipment from the TeleDotCom collapse. Their market is in a death spiral; what would YOU do?

You can be sure that the last buggy whip manufacturer in this country probably made the best darn buggy whip there was.

--Gene

... snip ...

To me, anyone who uses an inkjet printer has been sitting in the sun too long without a hat. I have a Samsung ML4500 I bought about 4 years ago, for $199, on its second toner cartridge. I have printed 12,000 plus pages on 3,000 plus sheets, mostly as booklets, according to the statistics on my FinePrint driver. Total cost, excluding paper, about $250.

The ONLY reason for inkjets is for color printing, and the propensity to clog when rarely used makes that doubtful.

--
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Well, to tell you the truth: I worked for a Dutch company (being Dutch), developing hardware and software for anti-shoplifting systems. About 11 years ago, this company was bought by a US company that was only interested in the existing sales channels. So I was sacked, together with all development and production personnel because this US company had cheap development and production facilities in Puerto Rico. I then started my own embedded development business. So, been there, done that, but got no T-shirt. At the moment I am selling a marine product all over the world. Oops, this almost sounds like a typical story from the "land of unlimited opportunities"..... :-)

Meindert

Yes. Sometimes a bit too strong...

I think I have a fair idea how things work over there. I do quite some business with US based customers (both private and corporate) and have a few friends that moved from the Netherlands to the USA.

Wrong again. I am self employed, which means that you have to insure yourself, even if you don't make any money. I pay about $560 monthly for health insurance and another $300 for insurance of income when I am ill.

The standard trial period is 2 months.

Not necessarily. A misbehaving employee can be fired instantly. A normal procedure for economic reasons can be as quick as two months time. In my case, 11 years ago, the procedure took the standard time of two months and based on my working history with that company, I got a paid for another 9 months, which would end when I got a new job. And I got a "bonus" of about $5000. Oh, and my salary as hardware/software developer at that time was about $20,000 annual, before income tax.

Meindert

This may not be the case.... The last set of stats I saw said that the majority of US engineers don't have (appropriate) degrees. The Indians do AFAIK.

SO the US may not be better trained. Experience is probably true. Innovation could be argued al day... The US did not invent many things it things it did.

Quality.... maybe. there are more CMM5 companies in Indian than anywhere else. However there are also a lot more sweat shops. Like anywhere else you pay your money and take your choice!

They want cheap costs (as long as the product works)

Yes this is why in the US many "engineers" are unqualified apparently. This is also why there are moved (globally in different forms) to register/license/certify engineers. Particularly with the increase in embedded systems in areas where people could sue!

Steady! that's commie talk :-)

Definitely communist! :-)

There are lots of people trying to do that but corporations (in general, not just US ones) do not want it because it hurts their profit margins. The problem with any levelling process is that to bring those at the bottom up a bit there (always AFAIK) will be a loss of living standard at the other end.

You only have to look at discussions on some of the other NG's to realise that many Americans will kill anyone and everyone on the planet rather than lower their living standards.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/\ /\/\/ snipped-for-privacy@phaedsys.org

\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

I mean there are a lot of people who can only do things like phone support and other "fix your computer" types of things and don't wish to become engineers or "better themselves" to make them more palettable for employment. Not *ALL* jobs are going overseas.

Except insofar as being able to get better jobs.

I'm not blaming the problems on the workers, merely pointing out that people have an opportunity to become more marketable to perspective employers.

have

Exactly.

-->Neil

The legal limit of working time is 10 hours per day and I don't think that there is a limit on the number of working days per week. For shift workers it is probably legal to work 6 days with 10 hours each. Working time is rather well regulated for blue collar workers, as the unions are still very strong there. That is very different for engineers, doctors or nurses. They work sometimes much more than the

38 or 40 hours which are written in their contracts and they are often not paid for overtime. Other than the legal limit on working time, which is not enforced in the mentioned examples, there is no legal obstacle for not compensating overtime. It is after all the free decision of the employee to work longer. He could deny that request and the employer would not have any legal means against him. The employee is also rather well protected against being fired for such reasons. That's different from the US.

For engineers it is between 25 and 30 days. That is independent of the length of employment, so it is the same for a starter as for one who already works since 30 years for that company.

I believe that it is perfectly legal to dictate that all vacation time is taken on their schedule. I'm not aware of any company that does that. A working contract is a cooperation, after all, and everyone must be happy. But some companies have plant shutdowns and force the employees to take some of their vacation then.

No, they do not get a working permit and there are regular raids in the typical businesses (restaurants, building constructions, farms). Deporting is very difficult in Germany due to our history. People have to request asylum and then they get social welfare and have a lot of legal support. That is one of the problems of this country. Meantimes we spend one third of our GNP for social welfare (mostly not for immigrants though). The figures were just published yesterday, it is in the order of 7000 USD per person (from child to old man/woman) per year.

You're dreaming. To start with, you wouldn't notice it. These products don't have stripes and prison serials. Instead of glueing paper bags, why shouldn't they assemble parts ?

Rene

--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

I think that qualifies as the understatement of the year. ;-)

starting

Most here get two weeks (10 days) when starting out, and one of which will be taken when the company decides. (HP current policy of annual shutdown) Of course if you work for HP in france you will get a two years severance package when layed off. You will also start with a months vacation per year, as in your country.

your

plant

Do

I haven't heard you complaining about them.

forgive

a few

That's hardly the same thing as being an American and having to fear for your job from day to day.

for

ill.

So more than half of your before tax income goes for insurance?

seemingly

terminating

Oh boy, that's rough. Two whole months and you basically are protected. People here give a company 20 years and are turned out on the street at a moments notice. Hardly comparable.

months

normal

my

and

another 9

about

about

So you got far more than a whole years pay as severance and two months notice? How long had you worked for them? Many people here get less than two weeks notice and are not gauranteed any severance package. In many states they can be terminated without cause at any time, even if they have done nothing wrong. Things are so different in this country, I really don't think you can understand the fear that most Americans face on a constant basis.

The common mantra here from the Canadians, Germans and Dutch seems to be that we Americans need to accept less pay. The problem with line of reasoning is that we Americans are not given that opportunity to do so.

If (when) competitors got wind of it, they'd have the company's products seized at borders. Management would be taking a big risk if their hard-earned markets could be eliminated overnight when it came out that they were deliberately breaking laws. Just to save a bit in assembly labor (usually a small part of total cost).

See above. Also, it's probably not the way to get high quality. Besides, how much does a prisoner in the US get paid? It might not be that different from an eager hard-working Chinese employee with a university degree. A bad worker can destroy a LOT of stuff, believe me. We'd occasionally get assembly workers (with faked up resumes) who were just trying to work long enough, 10 weeks, IIRC, to get back on the unemployment dole, and they'd ruin all sorts of expensive stuff so they could get laid off and go back to drinking beer and laying around.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

[big snip]

That's the point, Chris. But let's be fair: I don't think that this attitude of American people is essential (i.e., related to their origins or ideals), but merely circumstantial (because their economics is at the top... for now). When China succeed to USA as the leader of the world, we will see (well, perhaps not we, but our sons or grandsons) the same attitude in the new rulers.

P.D. Sometimes I vote to the Communist Party :-)

-- Ignacio G.T.

They are barred from domestic trade in the usual sense, also. In every state that I'm aware of, the sale of prison products is limited to products purchased by the state or state-supported institutions with taxpayer money (auto license plates are the classic example). It still represents competition to other would-be suppliers of the same goods, of course.

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerconsultingthis@att.net

The various quality programs are meaningful only if the management chooses to build quality products.

There you go again! Bashing Amerikaners.

We `murkins don't have to concern ourselves with someone external reducing our living standards -- our politicians and corporations will do it to us without any external cooperation, thank you.