Electronic Challenge Help Requested

Hello all,

Not sure how much activity is in this group so this is a test posting. I have an electronic challenge and was wondering if there was anyone in here that would like to brainstorm a bit to find a resolve.

What I have is a exterior flood light motion detector head. When the output is connected to the bulbs(resistance) the output is zero(0). When not connected to the bulbs the output is 120vac. I believe this because the motion is using a triac or similar device. I need a way or component that will make the output a zero(0)vac and upon activation will allow the output to goes HI at 120vac.

The reason is that I am trying to control the lights two different ways. One thru a automation device and the other thru the motion detector.

The automation device has a sensing input. In other words it just needs a voltage input at 120vac to then turn on the output to the lights. However because of the configuration of the motion detector it needs to see the resistance of the bulbs to keep the output at zero(0) voltage. Without this resistance value the output is

120vac. This 120vac voltage then triggers the input of the automation module and turns on the lights and they will not turn off.

What I think I am looking for is some sort of device that I can install on the output of the motion detector to ground or neutral that will make it think it sees the bulbs and put the voltage at zero(0)vac. Then when the motion trips it will need to handle

120vac at 20 amps so that the voltage can go HI and can be seen by the automation device.

Anyone know a proper device that can do this and be small enough to fit into the electrical box behind the fixture??

Thanks in advance input.

Les

Reply to
ABLE1
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"ABLE1"

** Your wording is very confused.

Does " not connected to the bulbs " = there are no bulbs installed ??

** Install some bulbs maybe ?

God knows WTF you are on about.

... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Phil, thanks for the response.

Very sorry for the confusion. I just tired and stressed, so I do apologize. It is difficult to type out this issue since it does not conform with the norm. I will attempt to clarify. If I knew more about the internal circuitry of the motion head I might not be asking the question or could explain it better.

This motion head does NOT have a conventional open contact relay. When bulbs are installed and the unit is powered up the output to the bulbs is at zero(0). If the bulbs are not connected or installed the output is 120vac. I am trying to install a device that that will be connected to bulbs to control the on/off function. The output of the motion must be at zero(0) when all is stable, then when motion is detected a 120vac output would trigger the device to turn on the lights thru a sensing input. Since the output of the motion is already at 120vac when the bulbs are NOT connected the lights turn on and stay on.

What I am looking for is a device or component that could be tapped into the output of the motion and connected to neutral that would keep the output at zero(0) until motion is detected. In other words trick the circuitry to make the output at zero(0).

I really don't know how else to explain. I am more of a hands on person and as such have difficulty trying to explain by typing. If I still have you confused please tell me where and I will try and fill in the blanks.

Thanks for any help.

Les

Reply to
ABLE1

The voltage that you see when no bulb is connected is just "leakage" - there may be enough leakage current to make your meter read 120V, but if you put any significant load (resistor, relay coil, etc.) on the device, the output voltage should go to zero (or close).

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI  
peterbb (at) telus.net
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Reply to
Peter Bennett

Peter,

I agree it is leakage and to do as you suggest. However, my concern would be to place the correct device or value to pull the voltage to zero. I need a device at some value that will not pop when full voltage is applied when motion is detected. The "leakage" voltage presently is enough to show up on my meter as well as to trigger the input to the module. What I was thinking was some sort of diode or resistor, but it is the rating that concerns me. What would be the recommendation?? I plan on doing some experimentation but need a starting point.

Thanks for the input.

Les

Reply to
ABLE1

Hey Les:

I normally use the term 'bulb' and 'light' to mean the same thing.

If you tell me the bulb turns on, I know you mean that the bulb, lamp, indicator, light, lightbulb, filament, illuminator, light source has gone from a state of darkness to one of light.

The phase that confuses the heck out of me is: >> Since the output of the motion is already at 120vac >> when the bulbs are NOT connected the >> lights turn on and stay on."

It would be very helpful if you would provide a link to the actual unit you are using and point out which part of it is the 'bulb' and which part is the 'light'.

Your phrase above indicates to me that if you remove the bulbs from the circuit, they begin glowing brightly when motion is detected. This is outside my experience. I think we are separated by a common language.

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

The way I interpret what you are asking is you want the bulb socket at zero volts when the unit is in on state but not triggered. Put a 120 VAC relay coil across the bulb input and the output will be zero until triggered and then go to 120 VAC and pull in the relay. Maybe you could explain why you need this condition.

Tom

Reply to
Tom Biasi

Winston Inscribed thus:

He could have a faulty unit and looking to fix it !

--
Best Regards:
                          Baron.
Reply to
Baron

Tom, Winston, Baron,

Again sorry for any confusion. I agree terminologies may be part of the problem here. It really does make sense to me, really.

Here is a .pdf of the Outside Motion Head that turns ON Flood Lights at night.

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Look at page 5, it shows the wiring configuration. In it's present condition the unit works just fine. What I am trying to do is utilize a automation device to turn ON the lights when a the alarm system goes into alarm.

This is the quick start guide for the automation device. See page

  1. formatting link

This set up works just fine with most motion heads. Since the sense input to the module will see a zero volts due to it being connected thru a open contact of a relay.

However with the above motion head it has this sneak voltage leak that when connected turns on the module. I am looking for a work around to make this work.

Again, I think I need some component of some value that would get installed between the output of the motion detector and neutral to pull down the voltage to zero vac. What would be that component?? I have a space restriction so installing a 120vac relay or coil won't work.

I hope this makes more sense now. Thanks for all the thoughts. I know someone in here know the answer to the question just having trouble spelling out the question.

Thanks again,

Les

Reply to
ABLE1

Jamie, Thanks for the response. I agree but I have a space restriction. I have filled up the box already with the module and a

120 volt relay will not fit, unless it is very small. That is why I am looking for some component to do the job. Something that can handle the voltage when the motion turns on. Any extra thoughts??

Les

Reply to
ABLE1

Your problem is simple. THe device most likely has a Triac or something of that nature with components, most likely a snubber, that is passing the signal to your meter or device. You need to simply place a load on the output.

Myself, I would just stick a 120v coiled relay on the output and then use the dry contacts of that relay to operate the device..

Jamie

Reply to
Jamie

problem here. It really does make sense to me,

the unit works just fine. What I am trying

system goes into alarm.

Let me see if I have this right.

You have a PIR motion detection head installed and it works properly. It's this one, wired as shown:

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You would like to connect an In-LineLincTM Relay - INSTEON® On/Off Module (This one:)

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..... so that it controls your flood lights (through the PIR head) in response to a carrier current signal from a security system sorta like this one:

You have measured between neutral and the red pigtail *output* of the PIR motion detection head and discovered 120 VAC is present when there is no lamp connected between this *output* and neutral. You've also found that when a slave lamp is connected between this

*output* and neutral, there is virtually no voltage powering the slave lamp until the PIR head is activated, at which time 120 VAC causes the slave lamp to illuminate.

Your question: "I want to connect the *output* of my PIR motion detection head to the

*input* of my _In-LineLincTM Relay - INSTEON® On/Off Module_ in such a way that the _Module_ controls the power to the PIR motion detection head, somehow. How do I do that?"

Based on this information, I suggest that you connect your _Module_ so that *its* output powers your PIR floodlight fixture as shown in the instructions. But first, clip and tape the secondary red wire from the *output* of your PIR motion sensor in such a way that it never comes into contact with anything again.

Do I have that right?

:)

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

Almost Winston. You had it all quite well until you got to here.

The module and the motion need to have power all the time. The Flood Lights will be powered by through the module only when the alarm system is triggered by the means of a Line Carrier Signal and the motion head when it triggers the Sense wire of the module. The motion head will only trigger at night due to a photo cell but that has nothing to do with the problem.

It is this leakage voltage that is the problem.

Thanks for the input. We are getting closer.

Les

Reply to
ABLE1

(Some nonsense blather about the instructions being correct.)

Let me try again. The instructions are not correct.

Step one. Snip off and insulate the secondary red wire from your PIR floodlight. It will not be used for anything.

Step two. Disconnect the black wire from your PIR flood light from the wall switch or hot wire that powers it now.

Step three. Connect your _Module_ as shown in its diagram except that the red switched wire from the _Module_ should connect to the black wire that used to power the PIR sensor.

Step four. Turn the breaker back on and test everything.

My apologies for leaping to the conclusion that the instructions were right. :)

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

(...)

OK. Short answer is to replace your PIR motion sensor with one that allows you to connect separate power to the lamps it normally drives and the wire to detect PIR sensing, as shown in the instructions.

(Blush)

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

Winston,

If I follow your instructions then when power is first applied nothing will happen. Then when the sun goes down since the motion head has no power the lights won't turn on. The only time the lights will come on is when the module is activated which will be when the alarm system goes into alarm. This is not the action that I am looking for.

As for replacing the motion heads with a different model. That is not a good option since the current units (7 ea.) are new and paid for by the customer.

Thanks for the thoughts but I think that is the wrong path.

Les

Reply to
ABLE1

(...)

happen. Then when the sun goes down since

lights will come on is when the module is

action that I am looking for.

option since the current units (7 ea.) are

Can you write a macro for the system that cycles power on at the floodlight control as default, then 'off' and 'on' a couple times to command 'on' during alarm?

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

(...)

If Control '07.D5.27.1' is switched Off Then Set '07.D5.27.1' On

Else If AlarmIn Set '07.D5.27.1' Off Set '07.D5.27.1' On Set '07.D5.27.1' Off Set '07.D5.27.1' On

Sorta like that? Yes I pulled the sense 'AlarmIn' out of my....hat.

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

No the panel is not a Elk M1 so macros are not possible. I only have a relay output that I can program to change state when there is an alarm. This would then send a dry input to a controller module which sends out a Line Carrier signal to turn on the modules. I know you are thinking on this issue.

I believe it really needs some kind of load that can be place inside the box to pull the voltage leak down to zero. Doing that will solve the problem. I may start searching for a extra small relay that will operate at 120vac. This will do the trick but getting it to fit will be the problem.

Again thanks,

Les

Reply to
ABLE1

(...)

output that I can program to change state

module which sends out a Line Carrier signal to

to pull the voltage leak down to zero.

Let's say you leave your PIR light connected as is but you place your new relay coil between the red wire PIR head *output* and neutral.

Now the relay will turn on any time the PIR light turns on.

How do you connect the contacts so that your Module controls your existing PIR light, as if it is in series with the wall switch?

I don't understand the plan here.

--Winston

Reply to
Winston

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