12 LED resistance circuit help

--
Sure, I made a trypo, which is clearly evident from the context of the
article. Big fucking deal.

You, on the other hand, are bobbing and weaving and ducking around
saying that what you meant by current hogging (a commonly accepted
technical term) was "power hogging", or some such other nonsense and
trying to excuse your error by saying that I'm in the same boat that
you're in, LOL.

--- Well, had you noticed that earlier on in the article I referred to being able to run a relay with a 100mA coil, and had you noticed that that relay was in series with the collector-to-emitter junction of the transistor, it should have been obvious that, in the absence of current-hogging, that 100mA also had to pass through the transistor's collector-to-emitter junction in order to cause the relay to function. Also, I don't think there are any commonly available mechanical relays with will operate with coil currents on the order of 60µA, so it should have been more or less obvious that it was a trypo. Especially when you consider that just removing the mu fixes everything.

---

--- What I think is that you're trying to mitigate your error by saying, "See, everybody makes the same kinds of mistakes I do.", and there's no reason for me to apologize to you for flaming you about that.

---

--- I dont care _what_ you do.

---

--- You do now...

---

--- Shit happens...

---

--- Good.

---

--- Right.

---

--- Wrong. That's the same as saying that getting from point A to point B via a road that doesn't exist is the same as getting from point A to point B via road that does exist.

---

--- I have no problem.

---

--- Neither my appeasement nor your sarcasm is necessary. Besides, I don't know why you're so offended by what you thought was a trick question since, trick question or not, it certainly woke you up quickly enough!

---

--- Is that a trick question?

-- John Fields Professional Circuit Designer

^^ Oops... 600

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

I guess I misunderstood you when you said:

"The actual value across each l.e.d. varies from device to device at any current."

so

it?

such a

I know, that's why I said, "that I should have said power instead of current". I was going to say "hogging the juice" but changed it to the incorrect word of current (instead of power) and I really wish that I had stuck with juice.

bunch

I would have, if you'd have just pointed out my mistake like dB did. Instead, for some twisted reason, you try to set me up with a little trick question.

non-rechargeable

OK, Mr. "professional circuit designer", I already did that and that's why I know you made a mistake. You incorrectly stated that the max current was ".6mA", IOW 600uA. The correct number is 600mA or .6A, but it is certainly not .6mA. I realize that's only three orders of magnitude off, so perhaps that's close enough for you, but it's not for me. Now awaiting your apology (for leaping to conclusions and then cussing me out) and your admission of error.

I hope this link works:

Now.......wasn't that allot more productive than just pointing out the mistake? Not.

Clearly evident, are you trying to be funny? There is nothing "clearly evident" about 0.6mA REALLY meaning 600mA.

As a matter of fact, it is a BFD now. You wrongly cussed me out, now you should apologize. Or do you think you are above that?

I admitted that current was the wrong word, WTF do you want me to do? Do you really think that I don't know the difference between current and power, or that the current thru all components in a series circuit is the same? I really didn't expect the pedant police to jump all over it. Next time I'll be more careful.

The simple fact remains that one LED WILL DISIPATE MORE POWER THAN THE OTHER DUE TO DIFFERING Vf's. RIGHT??? THE END RESULT IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS IF ONE DEVICE HOGGED MORE CURRENT, RIGHT??? I have admitted my error numerous times now. Now, what is your problem?

I'm not saying that you're in the same boat as me, I am saying that you make mistakes too. What I'd like to know is:

Would you rather have someone point it out nicely, or would you rather them try to trip you up so that you can dig yourself in deeper? Let me know so that I may properly appease you in the future.

BTW, I feel that a microcontroller would be a simpler, cheaper, more reliable (iow better) solution to the problem of resetting the network appliances on a regular basis. What do you think?

--
Oh, so now you're an authority on the OP?

Whether it was obvious to him or not wouldn't have made a particle of
difference as long as he used a 2N4401, as was shown on the schematic.

What I think is interesting is that for all your whining about a typo
you had a chance to catch a much more serious _technical_ error, yet
you didn't.

the

"clearly

It was obvious to me for all the reasons you mention, that's why I went and looked at the datasheet yesterday to see. However, it might not have been obvious to the OP (and it likely wasn't) given his post and his nym. I didn't feel the need to jump in and make a scene though. I figured you'd catch it or someone else would. No biggy. Certainly not like the sacrilege of misappropriating the word "current" in S.E.B, I see.

I don't want an apology for pointing out my mistakes, I want one for cussing me out after I pointed out your mistake. I admit my mistake yet again, when will it be enough for you?

and

that

I guess that's only as long as I don't say "current" when I really mean "power".

and

I think I knew it 25 or 30 years ago.

whatever

THE

At least we can agree on something.

Your falacious analogy aside, the end result is a smoked part. The same as when you put too much current thru it. I defy you to tell the difference in a post-mortem exam.

Other than your inability to apologize for cussing someone out and calling them names.

you

rather

me

Too bad you didn't "wake up" to your "trypo" until after cussing me out.

network

no

Didn't you have a pot in your design?

Probably wouldn't need a transistor to drive the relay as long as

5V@25mA will do it. Why not a nice SSR instead?

How come the full cost of a programmer and the micro's entire learning curve gets factored in every time a micro is mentioned as a solution? It's a one time cost, just like the rest of anyones test equipment or education. I spent less than $75.00 on my programming hardware and the dev tools were free from Microchip. My scope cost me more than $400 fifteen years ago and it was used then. Nobody worries about the thousands of dollars needed for the rest of the stuff you need to effectively tinker in electronics, just the $50 for the programmer like it's some kind of major show-stopper. IME, debugging time for this project would be virtually non-existent and the end result would be more useful since it would have a much greater dynamic range on the time constant.

Your cost may be a little less assuming a PIC 12Fxxx (~1.20 single qty), but a 4 bit micro would change that. Outside of the minor cost difference, I still feel that the micro offers far more potential for a better end result.

As was mentioned here long ago, and is still true, "Use a PIC" is much too generic of a 'solution'. It doesn't teach much about electronic hardware and of those that suggest a PIC as a solution, maybe one has followed through with schematics AND source code.

Look at the PIC question today, the OP asks why the software he DL doesn't see the programmer he built. He links a page but we don't have a clue if he etched a PCB of space wired the thing. He has not gotten back with any updates. It's typical.

learning

solution?

or

the

like

more

too

hardware

I know that I have provided PIC code for more than one person on usenet. Whenever I suggest using a PIC to someone, you can consider it a given that I intend to help them with their code and circuitry if they choose to try it.

doesn't

if he

any

Given the circuit he chose to build, I'm not surprised that it doesn't work. I would agree that it's "typical" of a good many newbie posts regardless of whether they're using a PIC. At any rate, his problem has nothing to do with a PIC chip, yet.

I'm not anti PIC, my burner handles many devices including PIC. I feel that if it can replace between 6 to 10 ICs or if you need one of their more advanced features like PIC with USB, then it's okay. I'd have to admit that their Harvard architecture is odd compared to von Neumann architecture. I understand the efficiency, it's reminiscent of AOS vs. RPN.

The versions and capabilities are many that one is easily overwhelmed by the variety. That's one reason why I would like to see a Z-80 running a TCP/IP stack. It would show that a '70's device still has uses.

doesn't

has

feel

6 to 10? That sounds like you may be just a tad bit resistant to using them. ;-)

vs. RPN.

Coming from an assembly programming background (on Von Neumann stuff of course), it was a bit strange to me at first too. PICs, however, are a godsend for me. They let me build the kind of stuff that I always wanted to do, without having to dedicate my life to hardware design. I've also been able to get projects working that I could never have done the "traditional" way.

by

a

I believe the Rabbit might interest you then. I haven't played with them, but AIUI they are very much like the Z-80 instruction set and they come with a TCP/IP stack. They're too expensive for me though.

---

--- Yeah, but it was a nicety. For the cost-conscious, and if the period isn't all that critical, 510k +/- 5% will be just fine.

---

--- Oh, I don't know... Maybe because that's not what the OP of the thread in sed you referenced asked for?

---

--- Because if you haven't bought/built one and you haven't been through the process, then you'll have to buy/build one and go through the process if you want to play.

---

--- Yes, of course, but it's a one-time cost and an ongoing effort which will will be unwarranted if the goal at hand is to build a one-off widget with a total cost of, say, $10 or less.

---

--- The keyword there is 'tinker'. If that's _your_ bent, then fine. Spend away. Understand however, that that's not _everyone's_ cup of tea and that some folks only want a simple, inexpensive, easily realizable solution for a problem peculiar to them. Asking them to spend _anything_ on hardware which is going to gather dust after the project is finished is, at best, stupid. As is asking them to spend time learning how to use it, and to acquire the software skills necessary to bring the "project" to completion.

---

--- If you think the OP was wrong in asking for what he wanted, then why don't you get your ass over to sed and tell him about it instead of sitting here playing self - aggrandising games and kvetching about every goddam thing under the sun?

Hint: He doesn't _want_ to be able to change the timing, he just wants something that'll give him a contact closure, repeatedly, every hour or so.

---

--- YAFI, LOL! Suggest away, and don't forget to include the cost of the programmer and the dev tools, and the time required to learn how to use them and to learn the instruction set.

---

--- "Minor cost difference"? You're either trying to sneak some shit in there or you can't do, or haven't done, the arithmetic, so I'll do it for you: Since the transistor, the base resistor, the clamp diode, the relay and the PCB are a wash, what's left is $1.20 for your suggested PIC way VS about $0.63 for my way.

That comes to:

$1.20 -$0.63 ------ $0.57

which is about 1/2 as expensive as your way. "Minor cost difference"? I think not.

Hmmm... Where did I read this:

"BTW, I feel that a microcontroller would be a simpler, cheaper, more reliable (iow better) solution to the problem of resetting the network appliances on a regular basis. What do you think?"

1. Cheaper? I've just proven that it's not cheaper in onesies, and I doubt that with that huge cost differential it could be made cheaper in volume.

1. Simpler? Since the µC way would require a large investment in time in order to climb the learning curve, that can hardly be considered a simpler solution for a one-off.

2. More reliable? I don't have a good handle on the reliability of either way, so if you have some numbers to back up your position, post them.

1. What do I think? I think you're full of shit.

-- John Fields Professional Circuit Designer

--
To whom and to what are you referring, specifically?

I thought the Rabbit was too expensive as well. I have a similar product I bought from Sparkofun, it was about $60. Under the RJ-45 is a 20MHz processor. It outputs in parallel but I've not yet taken the time to work with it.

--
Snipped away context, my ass.  You're the one going around reading
stuff in one thread, commenting on it in another, and expecting
everyone to know what you're talking about.

Only so far as what he posted. I thought he made his skill level fairly clear.

That's completely beside the point. Just like the fact that it wouldn't have worked anyway.

And you think that is something to brag about? LMAO I'm not the one touting myself as a "professional circuit designer". I'm in it for the hobby and I've never pretended any different. Perhaps you should have told the OP that your circuit was untested and unsimulated, because even I made the mistake of figuring that you actually posted stuff that you knew would work. I will certainly view your schematics from the proper perspective from now on.

First off the sheez part wasn't addressed to you. You might have deduced that from the punctuation. Secondly I was being sarcastic, you should have been able to tell that from the entire context of my post. At any rate, you are the one setting the precident around here of jumping down someones throat when you don't like the accuracy of their posts. Or did you already forget about the photocell and resistor fiasco in your unending love/hate relationship with Larry? BTW, I don't think my comment was all that bad, certainly not an FU or anything like that. I noticed that Mike pointed out your error and you didn't respond. I thought you might like to know about it. :-) It certainly woke you up didn't it. :-D

At any rate, the sole reason that I even mentioned you was because you had already made your attempt at setting me up. Given your typical behavior lately, I knew what was coming next. I figured my way of pointing out your mistake was just beating you to the punch. Obviously I was correct, since you are now so pissed over it.

I certainly didn't cuss you out over it though.

Where did I lie?

That was his choice. Like you, I reserve the right to respond when and how I want.

And?

now

saying,

there's

No need to sue, you are doing enough damage to your business and reputation all by yourself.

You accused me of weaving and bobbing, so I figured that I hadn't been plain enough for you.

around

accepted

do?

mean

Then, why did my comment upset you? I was only prompting you to fix your error. I didn't call you any names, or use an cuss words so why did you find it so upsetting?

current

is

I think I can still tell the difference between current, power and energy. I think you know that too or you'd be filling your posts with links to all my past errors.

Not half as weak as someone that feels a need to dominate a basics newsgroup just cuz they're an expert in the field.

B

to

same

that

Let

out.

Perhaps if you acted a little more civil around here, I would be inclined to be nicer to you. As it stands, you certainly are demonstrating that you deserve far less courtesy than I've shown you.

more

--
No it\'s not.  The point was that a 0.6mA was a typo and the relay
would have clicked in whether that typo was there or not.  Or do you
think there\'s some sort of entanglement between a typo and a physical
circuit which will keep it from working?