Who Killed the Electric Car?

We had such a meter but didn't sign up for the day/night deal because it would have cost us more. The meter was readable by a wand. Then the meter croaked and they replaced it with a 50's style mechanical one, looks brand new. No remote reading, nada. Talking about progress ...

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Regards, Joerg

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Nah, we must pay a nuclear decommissioning surcharge. Seriously. I guess that's for the old Rancho Seco plant.

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Regards, Joerg

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Nah. Deep down in the EULA it probably says that you have to indemnify them for all events, including 100ft tidal waves, earth quakes and judgment day.

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Regards, Joerg

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Quite a few people think it's worthwhile. One of the conversion sites:

lists the costs of converting a Prius to various plug-in power options at:

- $6,000-10,000 for lead acid batteries

- $8,000 for NiMH

- $10,000 and up for Li-Ion

One of the do it thyself sites:

suggests about $6,000 plus 2 weeks labor.

$32,000 seems a bit extreme.

Well, maybe a nuclear powered home water heater (and sterilizer).

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the manufacturers. Every time the economy, ecology, or government tries to push Americans into smaller cars, the domestic manufacturers find that only the big behemoth vehicles sell. The dealers discount the "unsellable" big cars in order to get rid of them. The buyers look at the price tags and notice they can buy a big car for sometime less than an economy car. Also, the buyers have a perception that they get more "value" per dollar in a bigger car. The net result is that the big cars continue to sell, while the poorly thrown-together economy cars, tend to sit on the lots.

Let's play with the numbers. A gas hog SUV will get about 14mpg. An economy mini-SUV will do about 28mpg. If I drive 15,000 miles per year, at $4/gallon for regular, the gas costs are: $4,300 /year for the 14mpg gas hog SUV $2,100 /year for the 28mpg econo SUV That's $2,200/year difference. If the economy SUV costs MORE than the gas hog (due to dealer discounts and difference in demand), a customer might be willing to pay the extra $2,100/year just to drive the bigger SUV. I've been looking for a new vehicle and found that I can buy a

2003 gas hog SUV for about $5,000 and an economy mini-SUV for about $12,000. If I plan to keep it for about 3 years, I'll break even. A bit more than 3 years if I throw in time value of money.

So, at this time, economy cars are in demand, yet I'm sure if I quiz the local used car dealers, the discounted gas hogs are still selling equally as well.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558            jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com               jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com               AE6KS

I wonder whether they all did a sober calculation including the rather finite number of charge cycles. I've seen lots of enviro-fans get carried away.

Well, here's the story I mentioned. He had to plunk down $32k but that was with labor and not DYI:

That would be nice. We (have to) use propane for water heating. Used to be $35/mo. Now it's about $80/mo. I'd call that hyper-inflationary.

Ok, my calcs are way different. I tend to keep cars for much longer than a decade. Heck, my trusty Mitsubishi econo SUV is 11 years old now and looks like new. I could imagine driving it another 10 years easily. Same for my wife's 1995 Toyota, looks like new, runs like new.

If I had my druthers I'd import one of those 16-horse Citroen 2CV I use to drive back at the university. This one:

It always netted me around 50mpg on regular, didn't mind the transition to unleaded and the engine was designed 70 (!) years ago. All they really did later was up the horsepower once in a while.

Not out here. There is a reason why Toyota does so well and we can see that reason in driveways every day when we take our dogs for a long walk. Remember when the guys at Buick and other places scoffed and laughed once they saw an ad for the VW Beetle? Pretty soon after they were heard syaing things like "Oh s..t!". Anyhow, at the end of the day the bottomline at the individual automaker speaks the truth. And that truth is painfully clear.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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[snip]

Already here in AZ. But voluntary. On-peak price is higher than standard, but off-peak is dramatically lower. I monitored our meter twice a day at the break-points for three months before signing up. This time of year we're saving about $30 per month over regular metering.

...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: "skypeanalog"  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

I hope you didn't do this three month monitoring in winter :-)

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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I always come out ahead ;-) The monitoring was during the summer. In winter I make out even more. Probably because the house is very well insulated.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: "skypeanalog"  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Padded walls? (Ducking and runing.)

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
"A doctor can bury his mistakes but an architect can only
advise his client to plant vines." -- Frank Lloyd Wright

Joerg wrote in news:MqpXj.1116$ snipped-for-privacy@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:

yeah,they don't assess such things for coal or oil production.They should.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Joerg wrote in news:NppXj.1115$ snipped-for-privacy@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:

my present digital meter is read by a PU-truck driving by.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Joerg wrote in news:supXj.1117$ snipped-for-privacy@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:

hey,any California judge would overturn that EULA! even their Supreme Court.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jeff Liebermann wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

and desalinator.also why not nuclear-electric power generation?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Joerg wrote in news:E5qXj.1125$ snipped-for-privacy@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:

it would never pass emissions testing,or crashworthiness.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

You will live where we (the central planning bureau) want you to. You will shop where we tell you to.

Our region (the Seattle area) is going through a fiasco called light rail that seems to be designed to feed customers and employees into one area (downtown Seattle). Any attempts to relocate the route, even a few blocks, to serve another major shopping mall (Southcenter) were shot down by the downtown gang. We certainly can't have shoppers go to the wrong mall.

The route was carefully designed to pass through neighborhoods (poor, low income neighborhoods) where friends of the planners had made shrewd real estate investments. A competing plan intended to serve existing residential areas was shot down. We can't boost the property values in areas where the good ol' boys haven't managed to corner the market.

The earliest incarnation of the project was supposed to run from Everett, through downtown Seattle (and be funded by Everett residents as well). Trouble was, the downtown Seattle planners refused to extend the line into downtown Everett. Instead, there would be a park-and-ride a mile or so south, where people could catch the train to Seattle. God forbid that someone might actually take it in "the wrong direction" to work, thereby propping up the economy of the Everett business district.

Don't get me wrong. I think mas transit is a decent idea. But only if the central planners don't try to use it as a tool to divert my money into the pockets of their favored business partners. Rail seems to be favored by these folks because, after sinking billions into a fixed system, they can argue for further tax funds to rescue the investment. If they went with buses, they could just change the routes to match demand.

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Yee-Ha!" is not an adequate foreign policy.

Edison killed it by using the iron battery.

On mine a person plugs in a probe.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: "skypeanalog"  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

It _did_ pass the emission test. In Germany, back then it was voluntary for this car but I wanted to know. Crash worthiness is an issue though but that's because the design was done without regard in that domain. The car had a real double I-beam frame and the tank was inbetween, almost bullet proof.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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Probably just ballpark guesses. Since such conversions are not in quantity production, estimating costs is tricky.

Nice article. (I use a few Freewave data radios). Did you notice the update at the end of the article?

Hymotion plug in conversion for $10,000. Add a 2nd battery pack (as was done in original article), and it will be perhaps $15,000. The plug-in installation doesn't seem to be a major project and shouldn't add much to the cost. The site says it only takes "a few hours" to install. Anyway, it's much less than the original $32,000. I guess it costs $$$$ to be a pioneer.

A friends son and former juvenile delinquent is building a hot water boiling solar generator. Central boiler on a 50ft Rohn 25 tower (so the intensified sunlight doesn't cook the neighbors) with some tracking mirrors. So far, he hasn't produced much steam, but has produced enough hot water to warrant serious consideration. So, visualize your hot water heater sitting on top of a pole or tower with squeaky reflectors all over the roof. It's not nuclear, but it's sure better than $80/month. Otherwise, look into tankless flash water heaters. They have a rather high initial cost, but pay for themselves in about 2-3 years (depending on consumption) in reduced energy costs.

Same here. My previous 1983 Dodge D50 diesel went for 285,000 miles and 23 years. I still have it an plan to rebuild it some day. However, my numbers and bad guesses are an effort to explain why the US manufactories continue to produce gas hogs. The discounted gas hogs continue to sell, while the overpriced economy cars just sit. It would be nice to be proven wrong and therefore restore my faith in the GUM (great unwashed masses).

My current 15mpg gas hog 1993 Isuzu Trooper SUV was purchased for about $2,000 with 150,000 miles. Before that was a 14mpg 1970 Land Rover Series IIa which I drove for about 135,000 miles. That was preceeded by a 9mpg 1972 International 1210 3/4t 4x4 monster service truck, which I bought new and drove for 140,000 miles. The plan was to run the current Isuzu for "a few years" until I could afford something better. Well, I'm now looking.

"New Car every 10 years or Used Car every 5 years"?

You don't drive a 2CV. You wear it.

The modern versions of shrink to fit automobiles is the Smart Car:

About 50mpg for gas. 80mpg for the diesel hybrid version. There's a rather large waiting list for one. I did a test drive in San Jose about 2 weeks ago, but decided it wasn't for me. It's like riding an enclosed motorcycle.

That was before smog was an issue. For example, when it was new, my

1983 Dodge D50 diesel got 35 mpg. In the 1984 model, the same engine was smogged to reduce soot emissions. The gas mileage dropped to about 28 mpg. Kinda like dragging an anchor.

If you need some entertainment value, try calculating the REDUCTION in CO2 emissions that would be produced by removing all the smog junk from infernal combustion engines. The official rate is 8.8kg (19.4 lbs) of CO2 produced for each gallon of gasoline. If we suddenly used perhaps 25% less gasoline, that would correspond to a reduction of about a 1/4th of the 5 metric tons of CO2 produced by each car annually.

In the 1970's I used to drive by the GM plant in Fremont CA and noted the rather large number of imported cars in the employees parking lot. In my recent search for a new vehicle, I ran a spreadsheet and graph of the resale value history for various prospective vehicles. American cars loose value much faster than imported cars. My guess is that if American manufacturers will ever learn to make a reliable automobile, that actually has some backing and support by the factory, then perhaps they have a chance. Otherwise, I'm afraid that you're generally correct.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558