Speaking of walls

It's not exactly difficult. Assets are stuff you have got and can keep whil e liabilities are stuff that you have borrowed and are going to have to giv e back or replace.

Your problem is that you think that the willingness of everybody-who-isn't- a lunatic-right-winger to borrow money now, to sort out some short term pro blem, implies that we don't expect to pay it back once that short term prob lem is solved.

The Global Financial Crisis was precisely that sort of short term problem. The central banks had to borrow a lot of money to prevent it driving the ec onomy into depression, but it worked and the economy is growing again. Betw een 1930 and 1933 a more austere regime shrank the US economy by 25%, which does seem to have done more damage than our current levels of debt.

Probably true. The O.7% of GNP aid target isn't going break anybody's bank, and the aim is to bring the undeserving slobs up to a level when they can dig up their natural resources for themselves, and sell them to us to be tu rned into manufactured products which they will buy back with the money we' ve paid them for the raw materials. There's a more old-fashioned way of get ting the natural resources, but paying for the defense forces required to k eep other predators from pulling the same trick doesn't turn out to be all that cost effective.

The undeserving slobs will do it for us, if they get developed enough to su pport their own defense forces.

They > seem to think all the money we've thus far been able to borrow on t he bond

They don't. They think that it's been just enough to keep us out of recessi on.

Why would they think that? You may be that silly, but real people know the difference between borrowed capital and wholly owned assets, and some are e ven smart enough to appreciate that it can make sense to borrow capital to build up assets with which you can earn money to pay off the initial borrow ing.

Of course you would be. Capital invested in new plant doesn't start paying off until the new plant is working, and return on investment has to be high enough to pay it off over a few years. Anything less than five years tends to be attractive. Anything over about twenty years needs to be very reliab le (and inflation-proof) to be attractive.

Since I was talking about gross domestic product, "rich" and "debt" didn't come into it.

You were complaining that most of the EU was too poor to be able to afford a pot to piss in, and I was pointing out that there are large parts of the EU that have a rather higher per capita income than the UK, and that the av erage per capita income over the EU is about two thirds of the UK average, which might not be "rich" but is scarcely poor either. All of them can affo rd a pot to piss in.

And they are all richer now than the UK was in 1990.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman
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And no matter how much you pour, that socialist 'special sauce' just doesn't ever work, does it?

Take Haiti and the Dominican Republic, on two sides of the same island. One's received $13 billion in aid since 2010 and is a basket case, the latter is one of the most prosperous nations in the region.

Observation: in poor countries I've seen around the world, their poverty nearly always flows from their politics. Outside money only feeds that.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

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As John Larkin has pointed, aid spent on getting more women through high sc hool pays off big time. Socialists do approve of that kind of aid.

A lot of the time, "foreign aid" is loans or gifts made to foreign countrie s to let them buy stuff from the nation giving the aid, and works more as a pork barrel for the politicians doling out the "aid".

US military aid to Israel does seem to work that way.

The Dominican Republic has been catagorised as a free country by Freedom Ho use since 1998.

Haiti had more or less free elections in 2006, though "the United States an d its allies allegedly poured tens of millions of dollars into unsuccessful efforts to slander Aristide as a drug trafficker, human rights violator, a nd heretical practitioner of Vodou."

Haiti was struck by a spectacular earthquake in 2010 and a cholera epidemic ten months later. It's not altogether surprising that it's still a basket case.

As usual, James Arthur's grasp of detail doesn't extend to any understandin g of what's actually going on.

A less biassed observer might see their politics as being driven by their p overty. Outside money needs to be very carefully managed to prevent it bein g stolen by the politicians in power, because there's not a lot of other mo ney around for the politicians to steal. When outside aid is being delivere d primarily as a covert subsidy to manufacturers in the country providing t he aid, the aid givers haven't got much interest in protecting the aid from predatory local politicians. Socialist idealists tend to be more intereste d in where their aid actually ends up.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 11:22:07 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@ieee.org wrot e:

e:

what

en

his

House since 1998.

and its allies allegedly poured tens of millions of dollars into unsuccessf ul efforts to slander Aristide as a drug trafficker, human rights violator, and heretical practitioner of Vodou."

ic ten months later. It's not altogether surprising that it's still a baske t case.

ing of what's actually going on.

Haiti has been getting foreign life-support for decades. Hasn't made them prosperous, or free.

You can't impose prosperity. Societies have to be willing to practice the necessary virtues, such as agreeing not to confiscate wealth or property an d to not to use the government to do so; to enforce laws and contracts; not to steal from one another; etc.

Prosperity depends on cooperation, which requires a lot of trust, confidence in one another's honesty, and respect.

y
.

poverty.

en by the politicians in power,

Delusional. You can't.

eal. When outside aid is being delivered primarily as a covert subsidy to m anufacturers in the country providing the aid, the aid givers haven't got m uch interest in protecting the aid from predatory local politicians.

y ends up.

Tell that to Bill and Hillary's Clinton Foundation's Haiti operations.

"Socialist idealist" is an oxymoron. By definition, socialist "idealists" aren't using their own money. Which also means they care a lot *less* about spending wisely, than a person would managing his own money.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

No it doesn't. And 'they' know it. If you paid into the same fruit machine for 60 years and it never paid out a dime in return, you'd give up, right? And probably *long* before that term. You'd see it was a pointless and thankless enterprise and discontinue. If you were of sound mind, anyway. But in truth it's all about control. It's about having African leaders in your pocket and all singing to the same hymn sheet. Get 'em all addicted to that aid teat and global domination moves ever closer. Why are these bastards so obsessed with power and control? The answer is because their boss is (the Prince of This World).

Reply to
Cursitor Doom

I hope you realise that your perfectly sensible observations here are about as much use to Sloman as trying to explain the concept of colours to a blind person.

Reply to
Cursitor Doom

ote:

ote:

s what

ween

this

d.

m House since 1998.

s and its allies allegedly poured tens of millions of dollars into unsucces sful efforts to slander Aristide as a drug trafficker, human rights violato r, and heretical practitioner of Vodou."

emic ten months later. It's not altogether surprising that it's still a bas ket case.

nding of what's actually going on.

Haiti was run - badly - by Papa Doc Duvalier from 1957 to 1971, when he die d and was replaced by his son Baby Doc Duvalier who didn't get thrown out u ntil 1986. Political stability took a long time to establish - not until 20

06 if wikipedia is to be trusted.

Foreign aid isn't going to do any good if gets stolen by the people running the country and shunted off into foreign bank accounts.

e

and

That's the proper way to get it. Having a gun boat show up and shell the pr esidential palace when the president gets too greedy, is cheaper, and does seem to be the solution the US has preferred in the post, back when banana republics were more common.

rty

at.

ir poverty.

olen by the politicians in power,

My ex-sister-in-law would beg to differ.

steal. When outside aid is being delivered primarily as a covert subsidy to manufacturers in the country providing the aid, the aid givers haven't got much interest in protecting the aid from predatory local politicians.

lly ends up.

" aren't using their own money.

Bill and Melinda Gates do seem to be using Bill's money. Their ideology mig ht not be socialist, but their aims are straight from the socialist play bo ok. Enhancing healthcare and reducing extreme poverty aren't exactly contro versial.

You'd presumably prefer that they spent their money on enhancing respect fo r private property in the target countries.

That's an assumption.People interested in getting a particular result with limited means tend to be remarkably careful, no matter where the money orig inally came from.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

Heck no! If your theory's discredited the first 60,000,000 trials, you didn't try it hard *enough*. Try harder! Give it more money, faster! (Just be sure not to use any of your own.)

The Clintons are neck-deep in that in Africa, arranging minerals deals for their 'donors' with unsavory regimes.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

I don't expect to reach Bill--I spent nearly twenty years trying to teach him how to spell 'its'. (And failed.)

But he's often usefully wrong, which is a service in and of itself. By insisting on what isn't, Bill often crystallizes what is.

"No experiment is ever a complete failure -- it can always serve as a bad example." --Murphy's Laws

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

On 9/27/2016 8:45 PM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote: [...]

The aid never made it to Haiti - US American consultants and advisors ate most of it. But they have the best underwear factories there now (really amazing). Fortunately, the gummint planned wage increase was short circuited by diplomatic intervention so underwear remains a very big bargain at Walmart. And the rice crop was sprayed and burned (by mysterious aircraft) so the high quality Haitian rice would not put Texas and Louisiana farmers at a disadvantage. And the native (climate adapted) pigs were assassinated because swine flu is dangerous so Iowa gets to send pork there and the Haitians have the freedom to buy pork instead of raising it themselves.

Haiti is well on the way to becoming a capitalist superstar!

Aristide was building schools and developing a healthcare system (almost like in Cuba which is a commie place). You can't control an educated and healthy population nearly as well as you can control a sick, ignorant and superstitious bunch of serfs who keep their mouths shut and do what they're told so commerce can thrive. Plus, Haitians were buying used Mack dump trucks and rugged but obsolete farm tractors which could have been used as weapons. That's why the CIA had to fly him to South Africa so the dump trucks wouldn't run over him while the tractors crushed the Army.

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Grizzly H.
Reply to
mixed nuts

Actually I know the difference between its and it's (only used for "it is") but typo graphic errors happen.

James Arthur's rule is simple - if it is Republican it is right, and if it isn't it is wrong. It doesn't work too well in the real world, but James Arthur doesn't live there.

James Arthur is a reliably bad example. There's no detail he can't misinterpret to support his argument, no matter how wrong-headed that argument is.

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Bil Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

Haiti is possibly one of the best examples of the final stages of a socialist welfare state--they're continuously running out of other peoples' money.

Eventually that leads to famine, revolution, or both. Or people flee.

That's funny! I enjoy your word-salad specials.

The fact remains that we've got two countries living side-by-side with like resources. One's prosperous. The other's destitute. How do *you* explain that? And let's be clear: *decades* of intense public assistance haven't fixed Haiti--it's as miserable as ever. Maybe worse.

There are lots of other examples of countries side-by-side, one well-off, the other not. With similar resources, one thrives, the other doesn't. And I say it's the choices the peoples make, the societies they construct, and the standards they live by. Their politics.

How do *you* explain that?

Can you point to any American city where welfare has eradicated poverty since we started spending $22 trillion dollars to the purpose in 1964, with food, shelter, medical and educational aid? Ever been to Detroit?

Here's how Benjamin Franklin saw it in 1766:

"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."

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Has human nature changed? If we feed the bears will they still forage and feed themselves? Do you think of people as dumber than bears?

But that was all before bears had ayeplods and smellfones, so of course we have to living and breathing the dusty Constitution because human nature is so hope and climate changeling with the salvation by razing attackses to stop the GMOs from everything George Bush, George Bush, fare share ... PANCAKES!

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

d.

They haven't graduated to the non-failed state level yet.

That does happen in failed states. When the government is a collection of p redatory protection rackets, nothing works very well.

Haiti never got well-enough governed to qualify as any kind of welfare stat e - socialist or otherwise. There wasn't enough economic activity to tax, a nd certrainly not enough surplus to re-distribute.

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Aristide would have liked to build schools and develop a welfare system, bu t it doesn't sound as if he ever had enough money to do enough to matter.

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The University of the Aristide Foundation did recruit 247 medical students, and had Cuban staff to teach them, but the 2004 revolution put paid to tha t, and the students finished their training in Cuba.

The Dominican Republic had got it's political system in order by 1998. Hait i is still a mess - the US was still messing around with Haiti's politics i n 2006.

And the Dominican Republic didn't have a massive earthquake in January 2010 , and a cholera epidemic ten months later. Haiti might have been less damag ed by both if it's political system had been in better, but it's still an a pples and pears comparison of the kind the James Arthur allows himself a li ttle too frequently.

Find another pair - preferably better matched than the Dominican Republic a nd Haiti - and there might be something to explain. As it is "the lots of o ther examples" exist only in your fertile and unscrupulous imagination.

Strange how welfare - properly run - can eradicate property in place like S candinavia, or at least reduce to to very minor proportions, but doesn't se em to work in the US.

James Arthur thinks that American exceptionalism provides an adequate expla nation, but I suspect that this means that Americans are exceptionally unh appy about paying taxes, and don't pay enough taxes to support enough welfa re to do an effective job.

Billions for defence, but sod-all for welfare (to paraphrase Robert Goodloe Harper) .

When Benjamin Franklin was young - and even after he'd got old - neither th e industrial nor the agrarian revolutions had increased productivity to the point where there could be enough to eat for everybody. Those who couldn't be dragooned into working (mostly on growing food) ended up starving - or rather not getting enough food to be able to stay healthy or work. The Reve rend Thomas Malthus (1766 - 1834) had worked it all out, perhaps a little t oo late to influence Franklin (1705-1790).

The Agrarian Revolution meant that we could suddenly grow enough food to fe ed everybody, and in fact take many of the off the land and put them to wor k in factories, which rather changed the equations.

Agricultural productivity certainly has. In Franklin's time, it took half t he population working on the land to feed the other half. That's now down t o about 1%.

Human being aren't bears, and welfare isn't handed out as a free gift - or a least not by people who have an interest getting a healthier and more pro ductive working class. Roughly 5% of the population is nuts, and keeping th em off the streets and tolerably content is as much a part of a government' s job as maintaining a police force and standing army, but that's not the s egment that needs welfare, nor the segment does a lot better if welfare is generous enough to keep kids in school.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman

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