Schematic/Layout programs

Hello,

I have been using Protel 2.0 up to Protel SE 99 and I now use Cadstar.

In my opinion Cadstar is a far better program than Protel for schematics and PCB design. I have not used any of the other functions i Protel (i.e PLD router etc) so I cannot speak for these.

A few years ago I had a short period of Orcad use, and I found it to be a decent tool at the time. However I am sure that much has happened with it since.

Cadstar remains my favourite though. It is easy to learn and use.

Best Regards Henrik

Hello Andrew,

This has been discussed nuemrous times here and elsewhere. Anyhow, here is what I switched to:

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I'd say: stick with Orcad.

Sometimes I have to use Altium DXP (which originates from Protel) which is terribly slow and cumbersome to use. The original Protel package was okay though. I also tried freeware tools under Linux, but the PCB program is useless for anything serious. The best PCB package I've used so far is Layo1. Unfortunately the creator put some copyright protection on it so it never got popular.

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl

gEDA and PCB

Here's a fun list of tools:

They left out Cadence, but that's because you need to be a patient millionaire just to draw a resistor on-grid in their schematic capture tool.

He also claims Pulsonix doesn't have a free demo version, which his incorrect... there is a "demo" version, which is actually the real program, it's just that you can't save any designs. (This effectively makes it a 100% free viewer as well, whereas for some programs such as PADS there is no such thing.)

You want opinions?

*-product-fell-*-*-*+Protel-*-*-*-SP6+before-previous-problems-*-*-*+*-*-take-days+ridiculous+renamed+qq-qq+Support-*-non-existent+bugs+*-process-*-Gerbers *-*-*-odd+Proteus+Eagle+mess+joke+*-*-*-all-*-*-say+*-price-*-*-reasonable+UtilBoard+Pulsonix+OrCAD+PADS+best-autorouter-*+*-*-*-*-*-*-point+*-not-cheap+*-worthless+*-interface-*-*-*-unusual+*-low-end-*-*-*-*-*+*-*-*-not-*-*-seamless-*-*-*-*-*-*-*+*-*-*-*-significant-updates-*-*+annoying+*-terrific-*+*-*-fair-price *-*+overkill+Neither-is-inexpensive+zzz+Protel*+*-backannotation-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-is-broken+PCAD+Electronics-Workbench-Ultiboard

BTW, GIYF.

*+Layout+PCB+software As Joerg said, this is one of the most-discussed topics in these groups.

The PADS program allows you to perform all functions, including save and generation of CAM files (Gerbers) for small designs. The schematic editor (at least up to 2005SP1) allows viewing and printing without a dongle. I have discovered that the ASCII export function (using Visual Basic) is still usable when the design exceeds demonstration limits, so you can do editing, export, and import (at least for my version 2004SP2). You can probably find someone with a full version of PADS (or use an older version) to create the Gerbers for your design.

I think this is an oversight on the part of PADS, but I am disgusted with their policies of charging outrageous fees for maintenance and huge penalties for reinstatement, while they do not fix known bugs and introduce new ones by adding "cool" new features. Many of their customers are dropping maintenance contracts, and they are desperately trying to keep this cash cow pumping the revenue because they aren't selling enough new seats.

The visual basic program to allow a save is:

=================================================================================== Sub Main Dim TestFileName As String

TestFileName = Left$(Application.ActiveDocument, Len(Application.ActiveDocument)-4) & ".asc" message = "Saving project " & Application.ActiveDocument & " as " & TestFileName MsgBox message Document.ExportASCII(TestFileName)

End Sub ===================================================================================

I like the PADS program and have been a loyal user for over 10 years, but IMO the PADS products have been ruined by Mentor corporate greed and insensitivity to legitimate complaints in their user base.

I am also following the development of an open source project called Kicad.

Paul

ISTM that minimal effort has been put into that list.

Comparing with Terry Pinnell's list is always advised: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:TqSgFbRdvUQJ:

*-*-existent+No-demo+GPL+trial+Student+Download-version+Lite+freeware+*-*-send-*-*-orders-*-*-*-*-*+Poor-web-site-no-details . . I have another Who-Uses-What thread for the OP: (Specifically bitches about OrCAD)

Agreed. With PADS 2005 we ran into a bug whereby some of our older designs would no longer produce correct Gerbers :-( -- SP1 fixed it, at least.

If you are looking for alternative commercial offerings, Pulsonix is very good about fixing their bugs!

Last time I experienced Crapstar the company ended up buying Protel for me after I had to argue about the crapness of it. I didn't try too hard I just said 'It's Shit' and there was general agreement.

This made the drawing office a bit jealous but there was something to do with legacy and what have you. The company upgraded the DO to the latest version and it was not compatible with the old version the engineers were using so the DO had to recreate the engineers circuit diagrams.

One day I stood in the drawing office and made a comment along the lines of.....

'Crapstar is crap, it seemed to spend most of its time telling me I'm stupid and I know I'm not.'

That got rounds of cheering and applause. The head DO man looked miserable and said 'At least someone understands.'

On another occasion one of the engineers was sitting with one of the Lads from the DO trying to get Crapstar to do something. This had been going on for about four hours with zero results. I watched for a bit and got the general idea then went back to my desk and knocked one out on Protel in about ten minutes.

I don't know if Crapstar has got any better but the last thing you want to do is buy it because it is crap.

Are you some sort of salesdroid?

DNA

a grotesque amount of very angry and frustrated ranting

Holy crap... Nice rant, but a bad day for serious postings. I believe the OP asked what packages people use. I just wrote about my experiences. I am sorry if this offended you. And I am sorry that Cadstar stole your girlfriend or kicked your dog or whatever.

No, just a happy user. Are you some sort of very unhappy droid?

Best regards Henrik

Well, I wouldn't be that negative towards Cadstar, we've been using it for many years. But I will _NEVER_ use the Cadstar schematic capture; it is really piss poor. Orcad is my favored front end.

I think this is as much a question of what you are used to. I have heard a lot of bad things said about the Cadstar schematic capture, but I have never felt that it applied to my use. Perhaps because I have used it for so long that I have gotten used to its small quirks along the way. However, I still think that the PCB part excels over various other systems mentioned in this thread.

My knowledge of Orcad is quite limited as stated in my first posting but I have heard many nice things about it. The company I work in, has bough Cadstar licenses for all of us, so it is not likely that I will be more familiar with other systems in the near future.

However, just for the fun. It could be nice to hear a little about what problems people see in Cadstar capture and not in others. Perhaps I have a problem I really do not know of :-)

Have a nice summer, everyone!

Best regards Henrik

Pulsonix is excellent, I've been using it since it first came out a few years ago:

Leon

Pulsonix is excellent except when it isn't; I've been telling people I think they're sending you free beer, Leon. :-)

Yesterday alone I stumbled across these bugs:

1) Add a new Technology->DFM/DFT->Net class->Thermal Relief->Additional Rules rule. Now try to delete it... you can't. (Workaround: Delete *all* net class rules) 2) Define a new grid that's referenced to a 25mil working grid; set the new grid's multiplier and divider to 200. Have it display itself using lines rather than dots, to better see what happens. Entertaining, eh? 3) Copper pours using thermal spokes don't always connect to the pads they're supposed to... oops! I can send you a test file if you'd like.

Now, to be fair to Pulsonix... (1) is readily ignorable, (2) is pretty minor, and (3) is... well... bad (I believe a DRC will catch it when it occurs, but I haven't tried that yet). I stumbled across (1) and (3) while getting Pulsonix to do somewhat sophisticated things with the Technology rules that you often can't do at all until you start looking at considerably spendier packages such as Altium or PCAD. (2) I came across while working with parts placed at funny angles, which I'd say works better in Pulsonix than in many tools. (Anyone know of a PCB layout tool that'll let you rotate the entire board view by an arbitrary number of degrees? That would be handy at times. Pulsonix does have a "view board from opposite side" function, which I find *very* nice as I haven't had that option before with other tools.)

---Joel

Have they sorted out the part in the tutorial where it crashes the computer?

Do the help files still come with pictures of walls with the plaster falling off?

Have they sorted out the part that deletes 'all' of the circuit diagram when you delete a component.

Is 20% of the installed software still the bug fixed, notfixed, file.

Things may have moved on but when I got to see it Protel had already done the port to Windblows 10 years earlier and done a pretty damned good job of it. Very slick. I can't comment about it now.

When I met Crapstar, 10 years later, they were just trying to run the old crap in a Dos Box and claimed something or another. When I couldn't use it... because it was crap I was expected to explain to the salesdroid why the software he was selling was crap. Excuse me!

Anyway, it's all academic.

I'm sure Crapstar will let you download a demo version so you can convince yourself that you don't wan't to buy it.

DNA

It does look like a bug.

Do you mean the band without a grid running from top to bottom? It sorts itself out if I zoom in. It does look like a bug.

I've never noticed that one.

I'll forward this to Pulsonix. Let's see how quickly they get fixed.

Leon

"Paul E. Schoen" skrev i en meddelelse news:44b551c1$0$3645$ snipped-for-privacy@news.coretel.net...

Aieeee: Mentor, the Symantec of the CAD business (in my opinion Mentor is still around because the license for that makes the corporate jet look damn cheap on the accounts ... )!