Resolve sub-millivolts with a PIC?

Thanks, but I've been woefully inadequate at getting my point across.

The methods suggested are charge balance measurements.

A sigma-delta converter is a big bucket. There's a hole in the bottom and the size of the hole represents the quantity being measured. You sit at the top and teaspoon more water in to keep the water level constant. The number of teaspoons per unit time has to equal the volume of water running out the bottom.

Similarly, a single slope converter lets the water level fall to a threshold and you dump a whole lot of water in the top to bring the level instantly back to the top threshold. Same concept, bigger spoon and you only do it once/cycle. Time measurement vs count... potato...potato...

These are both current controlled devices. You're measuring the current produced thru the resistor from the input to the reference voltage for sigma-delta and the current charging the cap in the slope converter.

Neither of these are very helpful when you want your input voltage dynamic range to be half the offset spec of the comparator.

In the sigma-delta case, it's like trying to keep the level in a

5-gallon bucket constant by pouring from a peanut butter jar into a straw sealed into the top of the bucket without a funnel. Some of the water gets in, some doesn't. The "slop" in the system exceeds the quantities being measured.

What I'm looking for is a CLEVER topology that gets rid of the slop. It's the funnel in the above analogy. You're more likely to find such an item in a patent disclosure than in "A/D for dummies".

The obvious "funnel" is a voltage to current converter that gets the signal into the proper paradigm for these types of converters. Might even be able to do it with a modified current mirror. The nice thing about current is that the voltage on the cap keeps changing until it reaches the threshold...even if the threshold ain't exactly where you expect it. You can calibrate out systematic errors. You can't do nothin' if the voltage never gets to the threshold.

Somebody asked for numbers. The numbers I gave in the first post are what I want. 10mV full scale and 1% resolution. But I did dig out a real voltmeter. I wrapped the peltier device in cellulose...aka a paper towel, stuck it into the plastic lid of a spray can and set it on the desk. After a LONG time, the voltage did settle to about 100nanovolts. That's the best this old meter can do. I was surprised it did anywhere that well as I took zero precautions to balance the thermals in the interconnect. I can see significant voltage transient if I flex the coax that connects it.

If I take it out of its cocoon, the voltage is all over the place. Stick it on a window with 14F inside/outside temperature differential, voltage goes to 100mV or so and dribbles down to about 2mV. It's the

2mV I want to measure. my 1% resolution is worth 5% at 20% of FS.

All seems consistent with my initial estimates.

The back story is this... I got a new gas furnace and a bunch of insulation added to the house. I've been graphing heat input. Consistent with my minimalist approach, I used a flapper on a microswitch sitting on a vent and plugged into the serial port of a Palm IIIc...and fixed it in software.

I've been seeing significant anomalies that I can't explain by outside air temperature fluctuations. Consistent with my lazy approach, the measurement system was a bottom-up design...who am I kidding, it wasn't designed, it was evolved... I had no idea what I was measuring. After I did the math, I discovered that the system has a RESOLUTION of 17 BTU. I don't claim that it's anywhere near that accurate, but it does resolve well. Turns out that I can see when the computer goes into standby or when I'm watching TV mirrored in gas consumption.

By this time, I'm into measuring losses. My windows are specified as R3.125. But I didn't measure anywhere near that high. And when I added R5 foam on the outside the improvement was more than I expected from R8.125/R3.125. That's where all the peltier device stuff started.

So, I have no idea how they measure the insulating capabilities of windows, but the numbers seem optimistic. This is an interesting reference:

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It's the operator/application manual for their IR thermometer tweaked to measure building heat loss.

If you sandwich the window between two metal plates and measure R, you get a small number. If you measure ambient air temperature in still air on both sides, you get a much bigger number. If you use the method outlined in the link, you get a third number.

There are all kinds of issues with boundary layers, convection, wind etc. on both sides of a window. I started looking into those effects. And I need some repeatable method to measure it.

Why do I want to do this? Because I can...and I'm bored.

Still looking for that clever way to resolve small voltages with no hardware.

Reply to
mike
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Nice, but 25 MHz? Isn't this like audio frequency for you? :-)

--
Frank Buss, http://www.frank-buss.de
piano and more: http://www.youtube.com/user/frankbuss
Reply to
Frank Buss

I don't know much about analog electronics, but IIRC the idea of the dual slope converter is to cancel out any inaccuracies of the comparator, because it is a ratiometric measurement.

I've done a quick amateurish test: A 12 V Battery powered LM393: At inverting input a voltage devider with two 10 k resistors and at the non-inverting input two 33 k resistors and a 2 k potentiometer for setting the raw offset, and a 100 ohm potentiometer in series for fine tuning. Some

100 nF and 1 uF at the inputs to ground, to avoid oscillating and noise. At the output a LED and a 1 k resistor to +12 V.

Then I was able to switch on the LED with very small movements of the 100 ohm potentiometer. Sometimes the LEDs blinks, faster if I move the hand some cm near or away the circuit, so maybe more shielding and better setup is required. But I measured the difference of the potentiometer when it switched the LED on and the calculated voltage change was below 0.2 mV (hystereses was much larger with my setup).

I think the resolution depends on the voltage gain and the short-term stability. The LM393 has a minimum voltage gain of 50 V/mV, so you could measure with a resolution of 0.1 mV, if you need 5 V output. Is it possible to cascade two comparators without problems?

The PIC16F627 datasheet and the comparator has +/-10 mV maximum input offset voltage, but I didn't found anything about the gain. But maybe for high precision dual slope measurement you'll need an external comparator anyway.

--
Frank Buss, http://www.frank-buss.de
piano and more: http://www.youtube.com/user/frankbuss
Reply to
Frank Buss

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The brand says it all.

Sounds like "Qwacko". Bwuahahahahahahaha!

Reply to
TheJoker

Sure, back in the days of CB's, when aligning, we'd play it by ear! ;)

Jamie..

Reply to
Jamie

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Mine actually stops at 20MHz, not sure if I forgot some hook in the setup or whether the manual is wrong. But it doesn't matter, I need it for mundane stuff like testing I/Q demodulators, locking behavior of PLLs, Bode tests on switchers, testing 400Hz aircraft designs, things like that. I used to hook up a Wavetek 23 for that but during the last

12h test cycle it thoroughly died, and it could not do ARB.

The spike thing when the relays switch is annoying, maybe I can find out where the mfg is (never heard of them) and convince them to do a firmware fix. In China that's difficult though. Haven't tried ARB yet but the unit has some nice features that aren't documented anywhere. For example, you can gradually distort a since wave to see what harmonics would do to your circuit.

Thing is, all the ARBs I've checked were well above $1k and most can't go down to a micro-Hertz. That alone is quite valuable if you want to test a machine, applying stimulus to a piston and so on. Sometimes I have to do that and now I don't need to build a test jig for that anymore, I can just feed in a test waveform. Ok, the Labjack can also do that but it's one less part to carry.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Reply to
Joerg

want

ould

ent.

I've published an expression that relates the two two twice now. once in Measurement Science and Technology

Reply to
Bill Sloman

want

ould

ent.

I've published an expression relating heat-flow to current twice now, once in Measurement Science and Technology volume 7 pages 1653=961664 (1996), and again in Rev.Sci.Instrum.

Sloman A.W. =93Comment on =91Implementing of a precision fast thermoelectric cooler controller using a personal computer parallel port connection and ADV8830 controller=92[Rev.Sci. Instrum. 74, 3862 (2003)]=94 Review of Scientific Instruments, 75 788-9 (2004).

You need to be able to estamate the thermal resistances around your Peltier junction to get it more or less right, but the basic parameters are supplied by the manufacturer

(i) Imax , the maximum current that can usefully be driven through the junction; (ii) Tmax , the temperature difference across the junction at this current with no thermal load; and (iii) Qmax , the heat transferred by this current with no temperature difference across the junction.

Driving current through the Peltier would certainly gnerate a lot of extra voltage across the junction where you were doing your measurement.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

Hey mike, Do you have anything against an opamp as TIA on the front end. I did this a few weeks ago nad it worked great! (I also added the signal with it's differential... the differential time picked to match the thermal response time of the TEC and improved response time by ~ a factor of 10.) What heat flows are you trying to measure?

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

Yep, I have a STRONG objection to adding ANY parts at all. As I've stated on several occasions, I have multiple ways to use existing equipment to make the measurement. I'm consuming some idle time by looking into ways to make the measurements with almost no equipment. It's more about creating a "clever" design than the final product.

So far, everything I can think of revolves around resolving small voltages. That's why I carefully chose the subject of the thread.

I appealed to this group of clever people to find a clever way to resolve small voltages.

I lost some time on jury duty. Now that the world is safe from perps...

I'm interested in your time response improvements.

I was looking into making several measurements and fitting them to the system time constant to estimate the final value. There should be a closed form solution to the problem based on three measurements??? Or at least a series approximation that doesn't require too many terms. But it's been 40 years since I've done any math more complicated than subtraction. I was about to google for a solution when I got side-tracked reading newsgroups.

Reply to
mike

Since Pics, at least the one's i've seen, do not have a high res ADC, I don't see you how are going to do this unless you use a low noise front pre-amp and twisted pair balance input...

etc..

Reply to
Jamie

I don't need to know that YOU can't see it.

I need to hear from people who DO see it. Beginning to look like I'm gonna have to figger it out on my own. And that's ok.

Reply to
mike

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Oh, well that takes even more opamps... though with good signals you can do it in software. Nothing is for free though, the improved time response comes with the addition of more noise. (With mV signals groveling in the noise... forget it.)

I summed the signal with it's derivate, the time constant of the derivative is choosen to match that of the system. (or plant... in control speak.) The TEC and what ever is hanging on it in this case.

I was wondering if I could hang a thin metal plate on one side of the TEC and detect 'heat sources/sinks' in the room?

You hit the system with a step and look at the response. In this case the step is real easy. Stick a power resistor on one side of the TEC and switch on some power. Find the time it takes to reach 1/e (~2/3) of the final value. That's the time constant... or close enough you can always tweak things.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

want

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s...

Geesh, that's a bit harsh. Without some sort of preamp.... I can see signals with my fluke DMM set on the 200mV DC scale. But I assume my fluke is a lot better than your PIC at measuring mV signals. Why are you afraid of opamps? They are a lot easier than PIC's. (just look at the length of the data sheets)

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

I was expecting it to be slightly more complex than that. I guess if the value of an exponential equals its derivative, you don't have to know the initial value to predict the final value. I need to find my calculus book. ;-)

the time constant of the

I ran a quick experiment for you. I have a TEC like used in a small camping fridge. 1.5" square. I just hung it in the air and let it settle to within a few hundred microvolts. Holding my hand 10 inches from it changed the reading about 0.9 millivolts. Hand on the other side makes it go the other way. Don't think you need any metal...although you might want a heat sink on one side just to damp the reading to improve the SNR. Wonder where I can get a thin slab of Germanium to keep drafts off the surface.

But an IR thermometer is a lot easier.

Reply to
mike

Did I say I was "afraid" of op amps? Fear has nothing to do with it.

My objective is to resolve sub-millivolt signals with a PIC. Says so right in the subject line.

I haven't done any experiments because I don't think I have any chance of doing it on my breadboard. I don't want to build a circuit board with good ground plane and complementary I/O to null out ground current transients until I think I have a plan.

Op amp solutions are "off the table".

I did have a happy accident. I accidentally switched the meter to ohms. I've got resolution out the ying-yang. Some meters are not happy with the concept of negative ohms, but the HP does great. Yep, there's an offset in the measurement, but that's what lookup tables are for. Will be interesting to characterize the device in that mode to see if the difference measurement (aka heat flow) is independent of the absolute temperature. Can't fix that with lookup tables. I think I'm startin' to have some fun.

Reply to
mike

want

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s...

The derivative gives an output voltage proportional to the slope of the input signal. Knowing the slope, the time constant, and the present value... you can kinda 'guess' where the signal is going. If I have some time, I'll dig this out and take some screen shots. (To be honest I think this was the first time I really understood the derivative term in PID control loops... I made a P+D 'thing'.) It's slapped together on some white protoboard. I've got a small TEC too, about 1/2" by 1/2", that should give a faster respose time.

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Hmm, Well it's not at all clear to me how thermal energy (heat) moves around in a room. I might guess that most of it is carried by convective air currents. The amount due to IR radiation, is perhaps less... but I'll have to run some numbers.

Hey have you tried searching the web for someone that's already done this?

"> But an IR thermometer is a lot easier." But might be measuring something different.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

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I built this on a white proto board... why not signals are changing at the second time scale... it's all basically DC. George H.

Reply to
George Herold

with

OK this is with a 1/2" by 1/2 inch TEC from Melcor. The signal runs into a TIA opamp circit with 1 k ohm feedback resistor... 1 volt out =3D

1mA of TEC current.

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Is the step response with 100mW of power. (2.7 volts DC across a 75 ohm resistor clamped to the top.)

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Is the smae thing but now channel 2 is the output of the diferentiator circuit.

and

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Has channel 2 with the summed output. It was just too noisy for my taste. I stuck with the single TIA opamp circuit.

Then this

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is the response to turnning on and then off a 75 Watt incandecent light bulb about 1 meter above the TEC. I put a piece of 3M black electrical tape on the one face of the TEC.

Here is the response with out the black tape.

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note the scale change on the vertical axis.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

I might guess that most of it is carried by

What do you mean by "this"? If you mean resolving sub-millivolt signals, I've googled myself silly. I've accessed the greatest minds in the industry right here. And I've used up a lot of scratch paper.

If you mean measuring heat flow, Omega has lots of info and products. I thought I'd posted a link to their heat loss meter. Just an IR thermometer with temperature offset to always be positive and ability to remember the reference temp to readout the difference. They also have packaged devices that are just thermocouples of opposed polarity on opposite sides of a mylar film. So few devices that the output is minuscule at the delta's required here. All the methods I've discovered break down to measuring the temperature difference across a known insulating medium.

Reply to
mike

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