Reputation trap

Jan 02, 2016 106 Replies

There can be problems when someone comes up with a new idea that isn't mainstream or appears to contradict the established orthodoxy but science is resolved by experiment and once another laboratory (or two) has repeated the experiment and obtained the same result it is accepted (although not always by the old guard defenders of the previous model).

The periodic table now has a new complete row after IUPAC yesterday decided that the evidence for the synthetic elements was adequate.

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Normally though younger scientists strive to find holes in the existing orthodoxy and there is great celebration and Nobel prizes to be had when someone discovers something truly novel and unexpected. Pulsars, buckyballs, graphene to name a few of the more recent discoveries.

Big Bang cosmology was still disputed by a handful of surviving Hoyle era Steady State loyalists like Arp until his death in 2013 for example.

A particularly sad one was the Belousov-Zhabotinsky chemical clock reaction discovered in the Soviet Union during the Cold War by the unfortunate Belousov. His claims of a non-equilibrium reaction that literally went tick-tock seemed so absurd to chemists of the time that he could not get it published in any reputable journal and died without ever knowing how unusual his reaction was. It made it out into the West and was noticed after Zhabotinsky explained how it worked in the 70's. It is a staple of popular school science lectures today as it shows some very quirky behaviour when done in a shallow dish.

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(sorry about the annoying music)

Even sadder was the suicide of the very brilliant but mentally unstable Boltzmann who was somewhat persecuted by the establishment for his insisting that atoms and molecules were real so formulating statistical thermodynamics. Scientists do have egos - some of them very big ones.

I am glad to hear that. There are far too many credulous fools about who deserve to lose their shirts on the LENR scam. LENR is in the same camp of fake science as N-rays and denying that NASA went to the moon.

Simpler to patent it and rake in the royalties. If it were a genuine fusion invention it would easily satisfy all the requirements to patent.

There was a sad example of a perfectly good invention demonstrated on the UK science programme "Tomorrows World" that was a fire resistant plastic "Starlite" capable of protecting an egg from an oxyacetylene torch and nuclear flash. It demonstrably worked but he had no clue how to go about scaling up from a lab setting to industrial scale. He was impossible to collaborate with and never secured any licensing deals although he spent inordinate sums of money with lawyers. He died taking the secret of his magic plastic formulation to the grave in 2011 without ever managing to make any money out of his invention.

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This one was demonstrably a real material but the developer flatly refused to license it in any sensible manner so he made not a penny.

I wonder if his samples of Starlite still survive somewhere? Modern analytical techniques might be able to unpick it.

Regards, Martin Brown

Give them some credit it does have a few random equations in there as well. The odd one might be physically valid under some circumstances.

It could be relevant in laser implosion deuterium fusion for instance, but there is no way it is relevant inside a dodgy half baked furnace.

It is exactly the sort of "information" you could use to separate gullible investors from their hard earned cash though.

The great thing about a really top quality fraud is that the mark will play along and pretend everything is OK right up to them going bust.

Regards, Martin Brown

Exactly how did you get to the second link I posted from the first link I posted? I didn't, I did a separate search to find the second paper.

Yes, that is not something this paper addressed.

If you search, you can find that kind of info.

If that's what you want, the information is available. This Russian did. it.

This was in January, I'm sure there is updated translated info by now.

Mikek

Here's a translated version of the A. G. Parkhomov paper, with pretty pictures!

Mikek

e:

and

f-cold-fusion

can > >>> use to build a device that gives the same result, science doesn' t really > >>> come into it.

when you originally posted it, and downloaded and read the actual .pdf .

The word "paper" is highlighted in the first link, and if you click on tha t you get to the actual paper. It's called a hyperlink, and I used the tric k frequently when I set up my wife's web-site.

ks like,

Perhaps. I'm certainly not going to bother.

a copy of the device.

it.

-new-data-images/

That looks like pictures of devices after use. It doesn't say how the devic e is put together, or much about what's put together from. Not exactly "how to build it" instructions, let alone the "why we build it that way" explan ation of what is going on, which is what you'd get if this was scientific e xperiment, rather than a money-making scheme (not that there's anything nec essarily wrong with money-making schemes, but they do call for a rather dif ferent, and a much more skeptical approach than does the technical evaluati on of scientific experiment).

Bill Sloman, Sydney

I presume he followed the pompously titled link :

Nuclear Spallation and Neutron Capture Induced by Ponderomotive Wave Forcing (full length paper here)

arxiv.org/pdf/1005.4913.pdf

It is very hard to understand how the claimed electromagnetic MHD mechanism can affect neutral particles at all.

I smell monumental bullshit writ large.

Why bother? I hope you are getting paid to promote this LENR trash!

If you insist on believing in flying pigs it will not make one fly! (short of dropping it out the tailgate of a cruising 747)

Regards, Martin Brown

There's a saw to the effect that old theories never die, only their proponents.

Patenting is expensive, time-consuming, requires fully disclosing your device, etc., after which you can be refused (= ruin). In the U.S., over-unity claims theoretically have to be demonstrated, IIRC.

OTOH if you have a working unit, which Rossi supposedly already does, you can sell the power instantly with zero scrutiny, disclosure, or risk.

Starlite, star bright, first star that I see tonight...

Cheers, James Arthur

It seems to me all these guy's have to do is publish (or even try to publish) one repeatable experiment showing a transmutation process not covered by current theory. This experiment would have to be well defined enough to be repeatable. Instead what they seem to do is try to interest investors in the proprietary scheme. What's a good scientist to do? Pons and company didn't do this and were not able to do this even with investment and funding. If Rossi has industrial generators working he sure as s*it could do a small scale definitive experiment or get one of his scientist friends to do it for him. What people do not seem to comprehend is if a new phenomena were to be found, people would be all over it even if it had no foreseeable practical application.

Paul C.

That is the whole point. If the eCat scam was what it claims to be it would create non-natural isotopic composition nuclear ash - impossible to fake (at least without exotic Manhattan project kit and national debt sized budgets).

The point was that Fleischmann & Pons published their experiment in a bit of a rush and were unfortunately wrong or at least unable to ever reproduce the effect again satisfactorily. Everyone and their dog with access to palladium and D2O had a go and for months afterwards it was almost impossible to obtain either from regular suppliers.

There are still some experimental groups trying in Japan I think. I don't know if Storms is still going but one of his more optimistic review papers from 2001 is online at TCM, Cavendish Lab, Cambridge UK.

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Meson catalysed fusion will work but first catch your meson. (that was the experiment that pushed F&P into premature publication)

All he has to do to prove he is doing what he says is provide macroscopic quantities of the spent fuel to anyone with ICPMS capability which these days is most decent universities.

All they did was provide a nano sample - so easily faked.

Regards, Martin Brown

Well, Marxism is alive and well in the Democratic Party. Marx, not so much.

Fusion (cold or otherwise) wouldn't be "over unity", however. By not disclosing, they're giving up their right to a patent in the future. Once the "secret" is out, they're ruined anyway.

The biggest reason not to disclose is it would teach your mark that you have nothing up your sleeve.

OK, where is this power available? If he's done it, fine, he can sell all he wants at the going rate. Does he have the grid ties to pull this off?

;-)

I never heard of starlite, but a high temp plastic (perhaps cheap) insulator could be very useful. Perhaps one of the family will share the formula.

George H.

Well, mostly, yes, but Pratt & Whittney doesn't disclose trade secrets to investors, nor does Coca-Cola, etc.

It's one thing holding the workings proprietary. It's something completely different when you won't even demonstrate it, or allow objective testing.

I meant he could sell the output on the grid, if, as he claims, he actually had it to sell.

If I had such a thing that actually worked, and no one believed me, I'd get a grid-tied solar permit. In my area, that allows you to sell ALL the power you make (at two cents / kWh over retail!).

They limit the size of any SOLAR array you're allowed to have, to match your historic consumption, but there's nothing stopping you from adding a generator and pumping out more. The utility may not like it, but the current contracts allow it. (It's some subsidized green energy b.s.)

You'd be guaranteed either a lucrative cash flow, or a glowing testimonial from the utility company for your device.

Cheers, James Arthur

If Star-lite did what they say I'd buy some right now. Lots of uses.

Cheers, James Arthur

Marx and Engels pioneered population statistics as a device for getting eco nomic insight. Marx's political ideas were less clever, and got him thrown out of the Socialist International in 1870 for being undemocratic.

In as far as Marxism is alive and well in the Democratic Party, it lives on in the concept that it's the well-being of the population as a whole that matters, rather than the total wealth being generated (which clearly isn't the same thing, even if krw and James Arthur can't see any difference betwe en the two measures).

Bill Sloman, Sydney

Sounds bogus.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics

Agreed. Both the insulating and melting points defy common experience / explanations. But IF true, send me some.

Cheers, James Arthur

Sure but you have to make sure that it's even possible to keep your secret sauce, secret. The question is, "can I keep it secret for 20 years?". Pratt&Whittney's secret is a process (more easily kept secret) and Coke's secret sauce doesn't matter. Their logo does (which is covered by copyright law, which is much stronger than patent law).

OK, but doesn't the fact that he's not, tell us something?

;-)

But it wouldn't scale well.

It tells us he's a f'ing(*) liar. I thought that was clear. We don't have to examine the thing itself to have high confidence it's bogus, not when we have these other cues, behaviors, and indicators.

(*) No, no that. 'Flaming.'

It doesn't have to. One (passionate) endorsement from a p.o.'d utility gives you the confirmation you needed--you've solved the "people won't take me seriously" problem. That was this maneuver's purpose.

But we're three levels deep in a hypothetical that'll never happen--it doesn't work. If it did, see above, etc.

Cheers, James Arthur

I'm not certain what you are referring to as "the whole point?" Without a definitive, open, well documented experiment, people will, and frankly should, assume a scam.

Assuming the claims are accurate, we're talking fundamental science here. The fact that they were not able to reproduce the result means either there is no result or they don't have a well document, understood repeatable experiment. Most are going to go with there is no result since such a result violates what is understood about the world. That said, there is no time limit put on a definitive experiment. If they produce such a result, people will listen and a way will be found to repeat the result provided the cost isn't prohibitive.

BTW, enough people have looked at this and none of them seem to have found that definitive experiment. I really don't think this is because "the finest minds" aren't working the issue.

Providing the ash isn't enough. They need to publish the experiment producing the ash in enough detail others can reproduce it. If they want to do "science", then releasing this in an open forum is what they have to do. If they want to get ritch quick start selling working devices and let others figure out the science.

Sounds bogus.

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics ===================================================================== I remember seeing a short demo video on TV, I assume it was the same one shown on UK TV. The starlite was in the form of a clear round disc maybe 8" diameter and pretty thick, about 1", supported on an iron ring over an unlit bunsen burner. They sat a kitten down on the disc and it just looked around and down through the disc, then they lit the bunsen burner. The kitten was pretty fascinated by the flame that was hitting the bottom of the disc and spreading out over maybe the middle fourth of the starlite, but after maybe a minute it was still quite comfortably sitting on the starlite just looking around. Eventually they shut the burner off and lifted the kitty off the disc - so far as I know no cats were harmed in the making of this video :-). Dimensions are my guesses based on the people and other objects in the picture, and of course this is all from memory. I was pretty impressed with the insulation and thermal stability since plain acrylic or polycarbonate would have been softening and sagging and quite hot on top by the end of the demo. They said something about combining an inorganic filler for insulation and thermal protection with a clear polymer, and that the remarkable property of the starlite was how clear it still was. Always wondered what happened to it but never tried searching for it and never heard about the inventor passing away. ----- Regards, Carl Ijames

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