Reading on this datasheet, please

All the ST inertial sensors seem to have crappy data sheets from my point of view. They're very detailed about the stuff of concern to an embedded software guy, but their electrical specifications seem pedestrian, and the specifications on their inertial sensors are downright vague, and missing some critical bits if you want to do serious measurements.

I assume that ST does this to satisfy the people who are going to complain the loudest, or because they aren't paying their datasheet writer very much.

Here's their L3DG20 data sheet:

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DM00036465.pdf

In Figure 5 they call out a 10uF cap and a 100nF cap, both to be placed as closely as possible to the chip "common design practice" they say. In other inertial sensor data sheets they call out a 10uF aluminum cap, with the other wording the same.

Can anyone see why this should be necessary? My faith in the data sheet having been reduced by the vague specifications for the inertial sensor itself, I'm wondering if the writer was told about bulk board decoupling and individual chip decoupling and misunderstood.

I'm about ready to send files off to the board house. I've pretty much decided that since I've got a 100nF decoupling cap on the part in an 0603 package I can just get the damned boards, and if I have problems I can stack an 0603 10uF ceramic on top of the 100nF.

But if such extreme decoupling measures have, indeed, become common practice while I was napping, I'd love to hear about it.

--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott
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I'd heed that advice.

How much capacitance you really need depends on your supply. If is comes in via several inches oft thin wire or is a battery with significant Ri this could result in increased reading errors.

Why not just add a 2nd 0603? If space constrained you can make the 0.1uF a 0402 or smaller.

Often they are concerned about digital noise on Vdd_IO making it into the supply of the analog section (Vdd). Plus, of course, power sag.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

I'm struggling with the dual constraints that (A) my presbyopic* eyeballs don't want to mess around with 0402 parts, and (B) the board is 32mm square, so even an 0603 part is pretty big. The big reason that the board isn't smaller is that when I scrunch it up more, it won't auto- route.

Even with Eagle's propensity to wrap the occasional trace around the board twice before it finally lands where it belongs, the distance from the regulator to the chip is pretty short.

I'll stack caps...

  • According to Wiktionary, "presbyopia" translates to "old man's eyeballs", while "Presbyterian" translates to "run by elders". I'd really rather like to think that my eyeballs are dignified and wise rather than stooped over a cane and leering at young women, thank you very much!
--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

On a sunny day (Mon, 06 Jan 2014 12:19:08 -0600) it happened Tim Wescott wrote in :

It is just possible that at accelerations up to several g a SMD electrolytic will be a noise source. I have used alu uF size caps on my 1.5 GHz VCO to get phase noise down, SMDs were a disaster, those are voltage sources if the board bends even slightly. That goes for 100nF SMDs too, but those will likely not modulate the supply much if they see 10uF in parallel. Whatever,

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

One many of my recent designs 0603 would be a boulder. I fianlly caved in and besides USB microscopes and stuff I got some of these:

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The strongest one isn't on this list, has a lens insert for 5x. You have to get real close but it makes soldering 0201 fairly straightforward.

Those usually should be hand-routed anyhow.

Just keep in mind that almost anything other than a sync-buck running in "non-eco" mode can only source current but not sink any.

Ugh. Then you'll be stuck doing production in-house since most assemblers won't take that kind of job.

The latter is unavoidable with (most) guys. Built into our DNA I guess.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

It's sort of a self-regulating thing--the older you get, the further away you have to leer from. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs 
Principal Consultant 
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC 
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 

160 North State Road #203 
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 

hobbs at electrooptical dot net 
http://electrooptical.net
Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Do you mean SMD electrolytic, or SMD ceramic? I know that ceramics can be pretty bad; in fact I remember one project where the hero moment came when we replaced a single high-capacitance ceramic with a pair of Tantalum caps for just that reason.

You have a good point there, and this is a high-vibe environment. Hopefully it won't be an issue -- we'll see.

Heh. You can get tants in 0603. I have been sleeping.

--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

one of the stm32f4 boards has the same part in has the 100n+10u

I'm guessing it has some kind of internal trippler since the floating

10n cap is spec'd for 25V and minimum capacity at 11V

-Lasse

Reply to
Lasse Langwadt Christensen

It's a hobby project. If I make more than three I'll be surprised -- and in the event I may take the time to hand-lay a smaller board, with better caps and all that good stuff.

--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

You'll know you're old when you notice the little old ladies leering at _you_ >:-} ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142   Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Try the router over at

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IIRC, there are a couple of ULPs for EAGLE that handle the necessary conversions.

Reply to
Rich Webb

Autorouting that large a board does not seem wise. Moreover the Eagles autorouter is no good. Even the demo uses too much space and way too much vias. The only good autorouter I ever used was Spectra. But that has been some years ago. There may be more good ones these days that I don't know about. I'm using the professional Eagle but I will not use or buy it's autorouter anymore.

petrus bitbyter

Reply to
petrus bitbyter

Yo, Petrus, heard anything about Eagle version 7 yet? Mainly, will they likely give us hierarchical schematics? They've chickened out of that one twice already which is why I never upgraded since version 4. I just couldn't see the point.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

32 millimeter on a side? Less than two square inches of area? Only 100 wires in the ratsnest? That's big?

What's 'little' to you?

--

Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Dont know about that device in particular, but in my experience with several different gyro packages, they all suffer from extreme cases of specsmanship.

Bypassing may not be your only problem.

Depending on how it affects your application, the noise drift and temperature offset sensitivity may be much worse than specified.

Those leadless packages seem to suffer from bad effects of differential thermal expansion causing strain on the internal structures, and affecting the offsets.

And the show-stopper for many applications is the cross-coupling of rotation and/or acceleration on one axis into offset drift on the other axes.

None of these ever seem to get a mention in the data sheets.

Have fun.

--
Regards, 

Adrian Jansen           adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net 
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.
Reply to
Adrian Jansen

Looks to me like the old multi decade bypass scheme. Lots of threads and articles on the pros and cons of it - it works, it does not work, who cares, does not matter....

--
Chisolm 
Republic of Texas
Reply to
Joe Chisolm

  • ST sez: "Page Not Found - 404 Server Error We're sorry, the page or document you requested is not available". And a search for L3DG20 nets "Part Number Results (0): No Results". TTA.
Reply to
Robert Baer

eyeballs

from

much

been

The only autorouter that ever impressed me was CirCad. I still have a really old DOS copy.

formatting link

Not very expensive either. About Eagle like pricing.

What would really help me is someone that could and would run them through the wringer for comparison. For strictly hobby work both of them are a tough justify; the ex$ensive fancy packages are fergeddaboutit.

?-)

Reply to
josephkk

Bracketed to prevent unwrap...

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142   Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Thanks; that does help! No clue as to WY the large cap is required, only that the datasheet makes it painfully clear that both bypass caps are needed.

Reply to
Robert Baer

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