Re: Oil prices climb to $101.11 a barrel...

There was a paper out recently on that.

The problem not previously considered is that any food not grown here has to be replaced. That means it has to be grown somewhere else, generally under more primitive conditions (e.g. slash & burn (shudder) or just otherwise less efficiently).

Since the planting-for-biofuel barely yields more than it consumes in tractor fuel, etc., to start with, any overall loss in efficiency results in net increased emissions. So say the paper's authors, anyhow.

Cheers, James Arthur

Summary here:

--James

Check out whether leaving the non-product parts of the plants just lying there versus plowing it under has the best carbon sequestration result.

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What about using kelp (seaweed) for bio-fuel? The ocean is cheap real estate and you don't have irrigation problems, mostly just transport problems. All you have to do is harvest the kelp and turn it into methane gas.

-Bill

The way I hear it, a Cornell study made calculations assuming all ethanol comes from corn grown on fields requiring irrigation, which is only 15% of all American corn.

It appears to me that the valid points against biofuels are mainly on bidding food prices higher.

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

[...]

Hi Bill !

1. Trashes marine habitat
2. Seaweed *is* food. Good, too.
3. Can't speak to the energy content or growth rate, but it's underwater, gets a lot less sun, so I'd not expect these to be attractive.
4. Is it easily fermented to methane? Most things aren't.

Hey, here's an idea--why not just get *smaller* cars, and drive them

*less!* That works with zero technical risk, current technology, saves money and saves the planet. ;-)

Cheers, James

It is clear that food not grown here is going to have to be replaced-- grown elsewhere. And, those new farmers will have to clear land & destroy habitat to do that. (I suppose that should've been 5c.: destruction of forest / grasslands / habitat.)

Since ours is among the most productive farmland in the world, chances are the new land will be less fertile. And so it'll take more land area and more work and tractor fuel, on average, to yield the same crop.

And the replacement's agricultural practices aren't likely to be as advanced and efficient as ours in general.

What the total affect of those factors is, I haven't calculated; I was just passing on that link (to the fellows who have, who estimate ethanol's net effect is to double CO2 emissions).

Best wishes, James Arthur

The Japaneese are working on the problem. Apparently, they can get about 20 milliliters of gas from a ton of seeweed.

Here's a link:

As for smaller cars, we could just ride motorcycles that get 100 MPG. But I was thinking the other day, it would be nice if the busses ran every 10 minutes along all the major roads. Probably reduce the traffic 80 percent, and we can always use a car if there's a lot to carry, or in a hurry, or afraid of motorcycles.

-Bill

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Opps, that should have been Kiloliters.

-Bill

So, do you ride a motorcycle? Or use buses or trains? How often?

Don't warn him, let him get hurt and let him find the truth the hard way. I already checked with the motorcyclists. They said they're getting 28-30MPG on highway. There is no such thing 100MPG motorcycle.

America loves to jump to conclusion on everything from Economy to WDM's. This time you're going to get hurt badly.

In message , Don Klipstein writes

Only if you don't slash and burn pristine rain forest to grow your new fuel and food which is what is happening in many places at present. You lose on both sides of the equation, burning the forest and no longer having it there to do photosynthesis. By comparison the crops don't fix as much CO2 and the poor soil quickly degrades without the forest canopy.

The economics of biofuel are questionable at best - some schemes actually use more energy from fossil fuel to cultivate and process the crop it than is yielded by the final product. You might as well not bother.

When we can turn straw and wood waste into alcohol for fuel then we will have something useful, but turning grain into fuel is certifiable.

Regards.

--
Martin Brown

"MooseFET" wrote in news:fq89bv$lu7$ snipped-for-privacy@aioe.org:

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bz

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an 
infinite set.

bz+nanae@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu

"MooseFET" wrote in news:fq89bv$lu7$ snipped-for-privacy@aioe.org:

They must be driving monster hogs.

Wrong. 100 MPG is very doable now.

The BMW Isetta (a small 4 wheeled car that looks kind of like a pregnant roller skate, the whole front opens, many think it is a three wheeler because the back wheels are very close together.) that I drove in college in the 1960's got about 50 mpg. The GAS tank "held" 1 gallon [with a 1 gallon reserve available via a valve as there was no gas gauge]. Top speed was about 55 mph, downhill with a tail wind.

The XK120 Jag that I had only got about 8 mpg. It would go a bit faster than the Isetta. :)

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bz    	73 de N5BZ k

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an 
infinite set.

bz+ser@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu   remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap

You haven't finish your school yet, so don't preach, wait until you gained experience first. Motor cycles can only contain 4 gallons of fuel. Do a research with the Motorcycle NewsGroup and come back dummy.

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de quoted text -

Actually, I walk most everywhere I have to go. I used to ride a bicycle to work about a mile away and I rode busses to school, but it took over an hour to get there. And I rode busses for about 3 months when my van broke down while I was shopping for a new truck. Also rode a motorcycle for a couple years when I was younger and car insurance was expensive. Nowadays, I drive about 5000 miles a year on two oil changes.

-Bill

Thanks for the link. I'm skeptical, for the reasons mentioned. This quote also raises my eyebrows:

"In the tests to date, one ton of seaweed has been processed per day, allowing the collection of 20 kiloliters of methane gas. In order to boost efficiency, this is blended with natural gas and converted into 10 kilowatts of electricity per hour."

How much natural gas is added? What's the blend?

If we take the entire 10kWhr as due to the seaweed, that's $1.40 worth of electricity per ton. Seems like a pretty low yield, and one wonders whether more than that was spent processing the stuff. Grinding up, pumping, collecting...

Alas, there are no easy answers.

Cheers, James

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Not sure if these numbers are right, but from this website it looks like giant kelp is worth 5K to 8K BTU per pound, or maybe 2KwH which would be 28 cents. So, a ton of seeweed would be worth 2000 * 0.28 =3D $560 ???

"Examples of biomass that may prove to be optimum crops include land crops of Sudangrass, napiergrass, sorghum, sugarcane, and the unicellular algae Chlorella and Scenedesmus, and seawater crops of Macrocystis pyrifera (giant kelp).^Several of these crops could yield

20 to 30 tons of dry organic matter/acre/y, some others up to 60 tons/ acre/y.^These crops are estimated to range in fuel value from 5000 to 8000 Btu/dry lb "

-Bill

You have not talked with a sufficient quantity of motorcyclists. Over time i have rode units giving anywhere from 22 mpg to 85 mpg. My current ride gives about 32 to 35 mpg commuting, but it is overpowered and very quick and fun to ride. (110 HP on 800 Lbs curb, full tank.)