"Don Kelly" wrote in message news:_9TLp.26140$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe04.iad... | | | | | "Androcles" wrote in message news:ZLRLp.8645$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe16.ams... | | | "Dean Hoffman" wrote in message | news: snipped-for-privacy@r27g2000prr.googlegroups.com... | On Jun 20, 9:15 am, "Androcles" wrote: | > "Dean Hoffman" wrote in message | >
| > news: snipped-for-privacy@w4g2000yqm.googlegroups.com... | > On Jun 20, 12:18 am, "Androcles" | >
| >
| > 2011> wrote: | > > Taking into account that bathwater electrocutions were unheard of | > > prior to Edison's electric chair... | ----- | and prior to that time, the only electrical device most people had was a | light bulb. Some had motors but there was no need for these in a bathroom or | kitchen. | -------------- | > > Taking into account that early plumbing was piped with Pb and therefore | > > a good ground... | > > Taking into account that early bath tubs were vitreous coated | > > cast-iron... | ---------- | And the drain was bare metal- connected to the plumbing which was likely to | be cast iron or even copper- ground path existed. | ---------------- | > > Taking into account that a measly 120V AC is the source of energy... | -------------- | and has done in many- I had to deal with a situation- it appeared that the | victim touched a toaster and a refrigerator (with no safety ground) at the | same time.
Ah, but with a wacky centre-tap system the toaster and fridge could have been on opposite phases, doling out 240V.
120VAC does it- not as fast as 240V but, because you have worked | with 240V -don't dismiss the "measly 120V" hazards. | ---------------------------- | > > Taking into account the execution in Stephen King's "The Green Mile" | > > where the skull cap sponge wasn't nicely wetted for Edison's 2000 VDC... | ---------- | Now you are calling on Hollywood. By the way, Edison proposed AC for the | electric chair- and it was accepted by the state- he wanted to show that it | was dangerous- the last thing he wanted was to have people see any dangers | with DC- see the Edison-Tesla "wars". | ------------------------------
Bad advertising psychology on Edison's part. Tell an American a gun is dangerous and they'll all want one. Oh wait, they all have one... and Edison lost the war.
| > > How does the current pass through a human body, insulated by the | > > vitreous coating, from the valve radio to the drain, if it isn't a | > > Hollywood myth? | > > Not only would the attempted murder have a low probability of | > > success, but the would-be murderer is likely to get soapy water | > > splashed on his suit and have to have it dry-cleaned, apart from | > > ruining his wireless set. | > > So when I | > > "Think how many people have died from 120V devices falling into their | > > bathtub- voltages and currents involved are miniscule compared to | > > lightning", | > > and when I also think of the number of people that have been struck | > > by lightning and survived, the answer I come up with, having thought | > > about it, is zero. | > > I truly believe it is a myth. Where are the Mythbusters when you need | > > them? | >
| > Right here:
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I didn't watch the | > clip. Commentary | > about the show in other places said they confirmed that people can be | > killed by | > bathtub electrocution. | > This is apparently in Germany:
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(230 | > volts, 50 hertz? ) | >
| > ============================================ | > "30 of the cases were suicides (75%). In 11 of the suicides a farewell | > letter was found; in three cases evidence of another concurrently | > attempted | > method of suicide was observed. One case was a homicide, 6 cases were | > declared as "accidental" and in 4 cases the autopsy findings and the | > inquiries of the police did not allow a clear determination of the | > circumstances of death. Information concerning clothing in all cases was | > rare; concrete information was given in only 11 cases. (1 victim was fully | > dressed, 4 victims were scantily clad and 6 victims were nude) Signs of | > drowning were found in 7 cases, 2 of these victims had a clear cutaneous | > electric mark. " | >
| > What that is telling me is the bathtub is instrumental in being part of | > the | > conductive path but isn't the primary cause of death. One could as easily | > grab the toaster and the kitchen sink. Having once got my hands across | > 415V | > I can tell you it was extremely unpleasant, but I'm still alive to talk | > about it. | >
| > From the New York Times:
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Two kids | > were killed | > in Forth Worth, Texas. | > ============================================== | >
| > Sceptically accepting that as factual, it still amazes me that it is | > possible. | >
| > What was a socket outlet doing in a bathroom with two unsupervised | > children | > of opposite sex, in the bible belt no less, to begin with? | | Maybe times were more innocent way back when. | | ======================================== | Oh sure, that was before Catholic priests were paedophiles - or | before we naively thought they'd never do such as thing as | molest a child. | | | Some more info here:
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| ( Journal of the American Medical Association) | | | Abstract: | | From 1979 to 1982, in the United States, at least 95 persons were | electrocuted in bathtubs; 66% of the deaths occurred during the winter | and spring. Children younger than 5 years had the greatest mortality | rate, and hair dryers were responsible for 60% of the deaths. Until | electric appliances used in bathrooms are made safer, the appliances | should be disconnected when not in use, not used in wet bathtubs, and | kept away from children. | | End quote. | | There is a link to a PDF with the full text toward the right hand | side. | ============================================ | No mention of the percentage of suicides and a call for appliances | to be safer! In Britain there are no normal sockets permitted, the | light switch is ceiling mounted and operated by a pull cord and | the switch for the electric shower is outside the bathroom. A | lower voltage shaver socket was permitted years ago but I've | never seen one. Possibly they exist in hotels. | But all this completely misses the point. | How does the current pass through a human body, insulated by the | vitreous coating, from the hair dryer to the drain ? | ---------- | The nice shiny conductive ring that fits inside the drain opening and | connects to the plumbing. | -------------------- | I mean really, a bird can alight on overhead power lines and be | unharmed, that's no different to dropping the hair dryer into the | water in the bath tub when your butt is sitting there. Unless the | bird or you are part of the circuit nothing will happen. | ---------- | | The situation is different now- GFCI devices are mandatory in bathrooms, | Prior to this shaver outlets had isolating transformers. Also bathtubs are | mostly fiberglass and the plumbing lines are plastic so the tub and sink are | isolated. | In that case there is no good parallel path to ground. | By the way, note that birds (particularly larger ones) do not sit on EHV | transmission lines - they don't care for corona discharges from feathers and | beaks- this has nothing to do with the bathtub situation as it was and | little more to do with it as it is- there is no path other than a lot of air | to anything else. | Never mind any corona or fibreglass tubs, we are not talking kV. It still doesn't answer my question, Don, and you are not a fool.
Look at the cartoon:
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Q. Does Homer get the beer? A. No if the tree is wet, yes if it is dry.
Q. What happens to Homer if the tree is connected to the line? A. Nothing at all, he's at the same potential as the line and gets the beer.
The cartoon is a myth, and the bathtub is at the same potential as the hairdryer.