Re: Lightning rod missing on building

What a 'Catty' reply! ;-)

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It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch.

Dogleg, Don. Chicane if you prefer.

| 2 sharp bends - can't be 90 degrees but surely sum must be 90 degrees | (assuming the over roof conductor was parallel to ground).

Dogleg sums to 180 degrees. Down the spire, across the roof, down the wall: dogleg.

| >>> ANOTHER RULE OF THUMB IS: LIGHTING WILL STRIKE THROUGH THE THE | >>> SHORTEST AVAILABLE ROUTE. | >>

| >> Not true, idiot. The arc will occur along the path of least | >> resistance, which relates to humidity and ions and 'leader | >> propagation'. | >> It is rarely ever "the shortest path". | >

| > While the initial ionization will certainly start through the path | > with lowest resistance, but when the actual massive current starts | > flowing, you have to consider also the inductance. | >

| > The longer paths usually have bends, in which the inductance is much | > higher, causing a large voltage gradient. This gradient can cause a | > flashover to a nearby grounded object and the main part of the current | > peak is redirected that way (i.e. it takes the shortest path). | >

| > For instance in one church, the lighting conductor was running about | > 30 cm above the roof, then making two sharp bends and then running | > vertically down at 30 cm distance from the wall into a proper | > grounding electrode. The high gradient due to the bends caused a | > flashover through the roof into the internal electric wiring, causing | > considerable damage inside. There was an article with a few pictures | > in Wireless World a few decades ago. | >

| | Bends in conductors cause huge E field enhancements at the outside of | the bend. | | Cheers | | Phil Hobbs | | -- | Dr Philip C D Hobbs | Principal | ElectroOptical Innovations | 55 Orchard Rd | Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 | 845-480-2058 | | email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net |

| |

Don is right. Lightning is known to do extremely strange things when striking buildings/the ground/trees/people/etc. Mostly you try to provide paths to grounds (lightening rods) and hope for the best. Still any protection is better than none. The lightning rod was invented by Benjamin Franklin because of the constant burning of barns from lightning strikes. The "lightning rod salesman" has been a staple of rural culture for much of the 20th century. The missing rod and cable is probably due to "copper thieves". Electric companies have been having huge problems with these thieves stealing ground wires from systems to sell the copper. They don't care about the dangers that this creates. In fact they just don't care period. A church near me recently had a brand new $20,000 air conditioner stripped of all copper (probably worth maybe $35). But also one of the functions of lightning rods is to alter the sky-ground E field gradients. By doing so you can alter the equipotential map such that lightning will tend to strike in places other than your buildings (places of higher gradients). I forget the values but the gradients can be quite high something like hundreds of volts per meter? Maybe Don knows more.

====================================== Ever heard of lead flashing?

ast

The

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NO SHIT? TGITM

Benj expounded in news: snipped-for-privacy@d1g2000yqe.googlegro ups.com:

My grandfather had a natural lightning rod by his barn, which was struck several times over the years. It was a sturdy old birch tree. Many of the strikes split the wide trunk open. It got rather frayed near the end.

Warren

OF COURSE.....BUT AT THE SAME TIME .AN ELECTRICALLY CHARGED CLOUD FORMATION HAS MANY OPTIONS BUT ONLY ONE WAY TO DISCHARGE......THE PATH IS TRICKY TO PREDICT BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE, CAUSE IT SLIDES OR IS DISPLACES ITSELF THROUGH THE ATMOSPHERE CLOUD TO CLOUD, UNTIL IT STEADILY BUT SURELY FINDS AN EASY ROUTE TO EARTH. THERE CAN BE A TEMPORARY PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE IGNORED BY DISPLACEMENT FROM CLOUD TO CLOUD, THERE CAN BE A SHORTER ROUTE AVOIDED BY THE SAME NATURAL PROCESS., BECAUSE THE FULL CHARGE IS ATTRACTED TO A BETTER (ELECTRICALLY SHORTER) ROUTE. WE COULD GET INTO ION SENSITIVE OR A NATURALLY OR OTHERWISE POLARIZED POINT ON EARTH.

IF A.MANMADE ROUTE IS SUPPLIED, AS WITH ELECTRONIC OR GROUNDED WIRED SYSTEMS, COAXING, OR IN LAYMEN'S TERMS, ATTRACTING IT, THEY WILL DISCHARGE SIMULTANEOUSLY VIA THAT POINT. A NATURAL ROUTE ON THE OTHER HAND WILL SUPPLY A BETTER ROUTE UNTIL THAT POINT IS DESTROYED BY A STRIKE....NO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH MORE RESILIENT CAN A MAN MADE ROUTE BE. IN AN OPEN FIELD OF STRUCTURED OPTIONS (HOMES, BUSINESSES ETC.) THE ODDS ARE NUMEROUS., BUT A ROUTE IS PREDICTABLE......AND CAN BE MANIPULATED PHYSICALLY.

THERE ARE FAIRLY NEW LOW MAINTENANCE SYSTEMS THAT CAN WITHSTAND A STRIKE, AND WITH A ROUTINE TEST + REPLACEMENT MAINTENANCE IT IS AS GOOD AS NEW AGAIN.

BUT WHO CARES.......NO ROD/CABLE SYSYEM ALONE IS ADEQUATE......IT'S EITHER AN ATTRACTANT OR A REPELLER........DEPENDING ON THE CLOUDS ;)

PATECUM TGITM

NOTE: SOME IRRELEVANT CROSS-POSTED GROUPS WHERE REMOVED.

Dogleg, Don. Chicane if you prefer.

| 2 sharp bends - can't be 90 degrees but surely sum must be 90 degrees | (assuming the over roof conductor was parallel to ground).

Dogleg sums to 180 degrees. Down the spire, across the roof, down the wall: dogleg.

---------------------- Since the original message didn't mention a spire- somewhat important information- I did not assume one. There are a number of churches in my vicinity- none have spires. However, I did pass (a few days and 1000 miles away) an Orthodox church which had several to spare.:)

Don Kelly cross out to reply

Although banned as a fire hazard in the USA (and probably Canada too) the thatched roof is still commonplace in Britain.

in summer and warm in winter, the temperature of rooms below the strawnever varies by more than one degree.And as well as being completely waterproof, thatch frees householders fromall worries about broken tiles and missing slates. A wheat and rye strawroof lasts for 30 years, long straw five or ten years less. But Norfolkreed - the name denotes type, not place of origin - is often still stableand impervious after a full century.Different climate, different building codes. We experience far fewerlightning strikes and a thatched roof will remain damp on the outside, dryon the inside all year round. So it is not a hazard here but would be acrossthe pond.

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..in summer and warm in winter, the temperature of rooms below the strawnev= er varies by more than one degree.And as well as being completely waterproo= f, thatch frees householders fromall worries about broken tiles and missing= slates. A wheat and rye strawroof lasts for 30 years, long straw five or t= en years less. But Norfolkreed - the name denotes type, not place of origin= - is often still stableand impervious after a full century.Different clima= te, different building codes. We experience far fewerlightning strikes and = a thatched roof will remain damp on the outside, dryon the inside all year = round. So it is not a hazard here but would be acrossthe pond.

The windows would NOT be an attractor despite containing metal if it isn't grounded metal.

A non-grounded metal object poses no greater attraction to the lightning than any other object.

IF it is GROUNDED, THEN it becomes an attractor with a gradient which is more attractive than the ground itself.

Wet trees get struck more often then dry trees, but they are AT GROUND potential.

A leaded window which is not grounded would have no more attractive force than the building it is mounted on does.

...

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g...summer and warm in winter, the temperature of rooms below the strawneve= r varies by more than one degree.And as well as being completely waterproof= , thatch frees householders fromall worries about broken tiles and missing = slates. A wheat and rye strawroof lasts for 30 years, long straw five or te= n years less. But Norfolkreed - the name denotes type, not place of origin =

- is often still stableand impervious after a full century.Different climat= e, different building codes. We experience far fewerlightning strikes and a= thatched roof will remain damp on the outside, dryon the inside all year r= ound. So it is not a hazard here but would be acrossthe pond.

YEAH RIGHT, IN THE POURING RAIN A CHARGED CLOUD APPROACHES A HOUSE FACING SAID UNGROUNDED WINDOW....THE AIR IS IONIZING LITTLE BY LITTLE WITH THE CHARGES ORIENTATION AND THE WATER STREAMING TOWARDS THE HOUSE....YOU PULL OUT YOUR MIRROR JUST FOR KICKS AND ZOWEE........YOU'RE DEAD OR SERIOUSLY BURNT, RIGHT THROUGH YOURBUNGROUNDED EINDOW. THIS IS A CLASSIC THUNDERSTORM DON'T ..... OR DONT YOU PAY ATTENTION?

AND IF YOU ARE SMART ENOUGH NOT TO TEASE NATURE WITH A MIRROR, THE SOAKED WINDOWS ARE NOW GROUNDED VIA THE WET DOWN POUR.....COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS....IT WOULD HAVE FRIED YOU. MY DISTANT COUSINS "THE CLOUDS" ARE MERCILESS. PATECUM TGITM

OH, ONE MORE THING NUNYA., YOU'RE AN IDIOT, LOSE THE NYM. BOOWAHAHAHAHAHAHA FLAMB=C9 ! DON'T COME BACK NOW.

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vog...and warm in winter, the temperature of rooms below the strawnever var= ies by more than one degree.And as well as being completely waterproof, tha= tch frees householders fromall worries about broken tiles and missing slate= s. A wheat and rye strawroof lasts for 30 years, long straw five or ten yea= rs less. But Norfolkreed - the name denotes type, not place of origin - is = often still stableand impervious after a full century.Different climate, di= fferent building codes. We experience far fewerlightning strikes and a that= ched roof will remain damp on the outside, dryon the inside all year round.= So it is not a hazard here but would be acrossthe pond.

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You are the idiot, Roy. The illicit use of a real name that is not yours proves that, you criminal, retarded bastard.

First off, there was no downpour specified.

Secondly, even if it were raining and the structure was wet, the ENTIRE structure becomes an attractor at that point. The window STILL poses no greater gradient to the air. The highest point of the structure does.

PARTICULARLY since leaded windows have smooth, rounded seams, and there would be no sharp corners to raise the gradient. You lose. AGAIN.

Terrell should have you criminally prosecuted. What you did with this post is illegal in New York State, and moreso in the city.

I hope he pulverizes you.

The windows would NOT be an attractor

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*plonk*

Do not reply to this generic message, it was automatically generated; you have been kill-filed, either for being boringly stupid, repetitive, unfunny, ineducable, repeatedly posting politics, religion or off-topic subjects to a sci. newsgroup, attempting cheapskate free advertising for profit, because you are a troll, because you responded to George Hammond the complete fruit cake, simply insane or any combination or permutation of the aforementioned reasons; any reply will go unread.

Boringly stupid is the most common cause of kill-filing, but because this message is generic the other reasons have been included. You are left to decide which is most applicable to you.

There is no appeal, I have despotic power over whom I will electronically admit into my home and you do not qualify as a reasonable person I would wish to converse with or even poke fun at. Some weirdoes are not kill- filed, they amuse me and I retain them for their entertainment value as I would any chicken with two heads, either one of which enables the dumb bird to scratch dirt, step back, look down, step forward to the same spot and repeat the process eternally.

This should not trouble you, many of those plonked find it a blessing that they are not required to think and can persist in their bigotry or crackpot theories without challenge.

You have the right to free speech, I have the right not to listen. The kill-file will be cleared annually with spring cleaning or whenever I purchase a new computer or hard drive. Update: the last clearance was 19/08/10. Some individuals have been restored to the list.

I'm fully aware that you may be so stupid as to reply, but the purpose of this message is to encourage others to kill-file fuckwits like you.

I hope you find this explanation is satisfactory but even if you don't, damnly my frank, I don't give a dear. Have a nice day and f*ck off.

[snip usual retardedness]

Pattycakes, you retard. What are you doing now, trying to post as Terrell?

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

That is what this total retard posted previously. Apparently, it i only for show.

He seems to think that his filter file edit session means something. He also seems to think that member of the human race would even give a fat flying f*ck who he decides to filter.

You are pathetic, LAME-O-cles. It doesn't get any more pathetic than you are (well, there is Roy).

Nice job of refuting. LAME-O-cles! Bwuahahahahahahaha!

My wife might be very interested in hearing about that, Pattycakes. I already told you, I don't swing that way. Sorry to disappoint you!

Just the opposite, Pattycakes. I *expect* you to respond. You see, the only purpose you have in your miserable life is to entertain me (and to give Roy some good lovin'). You entertain me by acting retarded in here. You do it so well. I taunt you, and you *have to* respond to me. You are the puppet and I am the puppetmaster. I say respond and you *have to* respond. You have no choice. You do as I say. Now respond, Pattycakes!

There's that mental health issue, again. It has already been resolved that you and Roy share an Ipad and an internet connection. You are Roy's roommate/relative/neighbor/gay lover/husband. Or Roy himself. Why not 'fess up which one. Nobody is going to believe a retarded ghost is haunting Roy's Ipad and posts here.

How many? Many years ago I ran some tests on a borehole motor/pump unit. The motors are filled with distilled water which acts as a lubricant for the bearings and the wire used in the windings have a rubberised coating). This particular motor had failed a megger test when it was in the test tank so I added some detergent to the distilled water and ran it. It was still scrapped because one can't drink soapy water but it proved that soapy water is an insulator, salt water a conductor.

How many? Many years ago I ran some tests on a borehole motor/pump unit. The motors are filled with distilled water which acts as a lubricant for the bearings and the wire used in the windings have a rubberised coating). This particular motor had failed a megger test when it was in the test tank so I added some detergent to the distilled water and ran it. It was still scrapped because one can't drink soapy water but it proved that soapy water is an insulator, salt water a conductor.

------------------------ I haven't a count but in the old days of cheap radios without a transformer, people sometimes used them on the side of a bathtub and accidents did happen. Heaters were also a problem but in both situations one could consider it Darwinian selection. This was likely not a UK problem as these old radios had 2 prong unpolarized plugs so that there was the possibility of a hot chassis. Why would you want to drink the water used as a bearing lubricant- with or without the soap? If it is distilled, surely you wouldn't want it mixing with whatever is being pumped (even potable water ). Could it be that the distilled water was contaminated because of a leaky seal? Information on the net seems to indicate that detergents actually raise conductivity- certainly low conductivity detergents (

.

Right here:

I didn't watch the clip. Commentary about the show in other places said they confirmed that people can be killed by bathtub electrocution. This is apparently in Germany: (230 volts, 50 hertz? ) From the New York Times: Two kids were killed in Forth Worth, Texas.

Right here:

I didn't watch the clip. Commentary about the show in other places said they confirmed that people can be killed by bathtub electrocution. This is apparently in Germany: (230 volts, 50 hertz? )

============================================ "30 of the cases were suicides (75%). In 11 of the suicides a farewell letter was found; in three cases evidence of another concurrently attempted method of suicide was observed. One case was a homicide, 6 cases were declared as "accidental" and in 4 cases the autopsy findings and the inquiries of the police did not allow a clear determination of the circumstances of death. Information concerning clothing in all cases was rare; concrete information was given in only 11 cases. (1 victim was fully dressed, 4 victims were scantily clad and 6 victims were nude) Signs of drowning were found in 7 cases, 2 of these victims had a clear cutaneous electric mark. "

What that is telling me is the bathtub is instrumental in being part of the conductive path but isn't the primary cause of death. One could as easily grab the toaster and the kitchen sink. Having once got my hands across 415V I can tell you it was extremely unpleasant, but I'm still alive to talk about it.

From the New York Times:

Two kids were killed in Forth Worth, Texas. ==============================================

Sceptically accepting that as factual, it still amazes me that it is possible.

What was a socket outlet doing in a bathroom with two unsupervised children of opposite sex, in the bible belt no less, to begin with?