Re: Hand wiring up smd led's

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Recently JS posted a link (in a get-rich-idea thread) to a guitar training system that has LEDs at frets on the guitar neck. If this project is the same one he was discussing before, then the wood referred to in OP is the wood of the guitar neck.

I don't have the link he posted, but here are two links to a patent for a similar system:

I haven't read these in any detail, but got the impression that the patent covers several implementations of the idea -- for example using LEDs or fiber optics or LCD screens at frets.

This is a highly technical patent. For example: "8. The self teaching apparatus for training a user to play a guitar of claim 7, wherein the light emitting transparent panels are electronically selectable to illuminate in blue, green, yellow, and red, wherein blue indicates index finger, green indicates middle finger, yellow indicates ring finger and red indicates pinky finger."

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jiw

Get the full patent from:

enter the patent number and get a pdf.

donald

If this is the project that the OP is looking at, I see why it must be so thin.

However, the sound of the strings buzzing on what ever material he would use may be a problem.

I would think that an embedded circuit into the wood with a hard plastic cover would be the way to make this.

donald

self

"Pinky!" What kind of patent claim is that? Every examiner should realize that the "pinky finger" is really the digitus mi=EF=BF=BDnimus ma=EF=BF=BDnus.

Obviously, if it were non-obvious, it wouldn't be obvious now would it? :)

...

Yikes! When I read this the design almost leaped out at me! If you can get curved FR4 (or your training axe has a flat fretboard) then it's just a 2-sided PCB with a matrix and, of course, the LEDs. Or, use a flat PCB and just round it with some clear encapsulant. Or black encapsulant with clear dots embedded...

Nothin' to it! ;-)

Cheers! Rich

Hey Sherlock!! You figured it out! It's similar but not the same. It is a fretboard! I think though I can modify my idea by removing the fingerboard and completely drilling through the fingerboard with the "electronics" on the underside. This solves the problem of "curved" fretboard which my previous idea had issues with.

My idea doesn't use "panels" which I imagine cause problems with actually playing. My use for the led's is a bit more advanced though than "pinkie goes here" type crap. It's more for people that alread know how to play but of course can also do what all the other systems do which teach the "finger method".

My original idea makes it easier to replace the led's because the fretboard doesn't have to be removed everytime but isn't the prettiest method. By putting the electronics on the underside everything is hidden out of the way but if a chip blows it's possible that when removing the neck again(besides stressing the neck) much of the electronics will be ruined. Although now I just thought of a way to get around that problem... but more technical.

The problem with most of the patents is that they use some overlay system onto the fretboard. I imagine for any serious playing/training that this causes major problems(lots of string bending will surely eat away at the overlay. (if it is as thin as what I think)

My method seems more like the "fretlight" idea. But it seems like they use a plastic neck. In fact I'd imagine my idea(the second one) is probably almost exactly how they did theres except I'd be using RGB led's for multiple colors and more advanced drivers. Also my intentions for the use of the led's are much more expansive.

Since it will probably be just a personal project I'm not worried too much about it being perfect but something that I can complete with my own resources and has the effect I want.

Which is why there is no material. All the electronis are either embedded in the sides of the neck(original idea) or under the fretboard(new idea). The second case is much easier to assemble the led's into the fretboard but involves removing the fretboard. Also I just thought up of a way to easily add and remove the led of one was to break... but it involves something more complicated than I imagine I can do. (it's a connector and extender so you can push the led in or pop it out of the holes)

It's not string buzz as the string never touches the stuff(unless it's above the frets) except where fretting... but rubbing on the material long with the material probably not feeling natural and sorta in the way. My idea makes it much more transparent(see fretlight.com) but the main reason is that it lets me to do "advanced" training rather than a simple finger location thing which all others do.

Sure.. except "curved" fretboards have multiple radii(they start out slightly curved and then get more curved).

not sure what you plan on doing though? Color the whole fretboard with pcb? It wouldn't work because it's too think unless the pcb was 1/64" or so. Also with all teh string bending on it I imagine it would get worn pretty fast.

Essentially your idea is to use PCB where they use some type of thin flexible plastic sheets? My is to have only the led's shown(which has a very small footprint on the fretboard and is covered up by very hard clear epoxy) and the circuitry is either underneath or on the sides, embedded, of the fretboard. The biggest problem my design has is if something needs to be replaced. But I do have a fix for that that I need to figure out a little more. (don't think it would be something I can rig up myself) (then the only problem is if an led drivers goes bad)

And your thickness is not a bad as it was the first time around.

Remove fret board, hollow out a space under for something a little bigger, drill holes in fret board for LEDs to shine through, replace fret board.

Even an .062 PCB would work.

Why is multiplexing the LEDs so bad ??

That would simplify the wiring.

You would need only nine traces, 6 commons, three colors.

How many frets are on a typical fret board ? How wide is the two outside strings, how wide is each string ?

One board with 6 LEDs across and the length of the neck, would be a lot simpler then one board/circuit per fret.

donald

PS: wow, I didn't think music would be so much fun. ;-)

I thought about it but it would have to be oddly designed so that there is enough wood to glue the fretboard and neck together. (wouldn't be a good idea to use a large pcb because I doubt it will hold well)

What do you mean multiplex them? Do you mean using a multiplexer? The reason is because they all have to be on at the same time... although you could switch very fast to get the effect of simultanity but why? The driver chip's I'm using can take in 24 led's and has built in PWM and I can use I2C to communicate with them

I plan to use the led driver close to the led's and each driver chip and then connect all the driver's using i2c. This reduces the global wiring significantly. (ground, i2c, power are the only ones comming off the fretboard and all the led wires are pretty short as they only have to go the nearest led driver chip which should be pretty close.

(the driver chips have independent control of each channel so I can do some cool effects)

(another thing is, is that the heat generated by the driver chips and led could softed the glue ;/)

24 frets, 2 to 2.5 in, string's vary in width from from a mm to a few.

Yes, one could do that, in fact if I could do my idea where the led's sit on a connector that could be connected to the pcb under the fret board(But removed and installed easily from the top side) then the pcb idea might be pretty good. Would definitely be easier to manufacture.

(basically the led has a stiff connector that can be pushed through the hole in the fretboard and "snapped" into place on the pcb. If an LED goes bad then one doesn't have to remove the fretboard)

heh. Just think what you could do with the led's. You could synch it up to the music or what the player is performing or even many other things(eventully if I do this I hope to add some other electronics with it).

Ultimately one could make a clear fretboard with an lcd behind the fretboard and display anything one wanted. (not that it would be very useful but one could have some cool effects from it)

On Oct 16, 9:17=EF=BF=BDpm, "Jon Slaughter" wro= te:

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I don't want to bust your bubble, but this idea does not seem to have "legs" to me. I suspect a great many (too many to make the idea viable) will simply opt for a $30 entry-level guitar and a $10 self-instruction book.

One question: Do you play guitar yourself? If not, go find some folks who do, and bounce your idea off them.

I'm just saying...

-mpm

I don't want to bust your bubble, but this idea does not seem to have "legs" to me.

--

luckily you don\'t get to decide ;)

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I suspect a great many (too many to make the idea viable) will simply
opt for a $30 entry-level guitar and a $10 self-instruction book.

leds essentially last forever if treated well, if your still worried use twice as many and drive them (each) half as hard.

fr4 is translucent, replace the fretboard with a FR4 fretboard with LEDs soldered to the back, upside down, and frets soldered (or glued) to the front.

don't like the look of that? maybe solder the leds to the front black out all the bare metal (permanent marker or suitable paint) and apply 1mm of resin over the top

Bye. Jasen

use thermosetting glue (like epoxy, or polyester resin)

Bye. Jasen

How are you going to remove fretboard then?

On Oct 17, 6:40=EF=BF=BDam, "Jon Slaughter" wro= te:

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Calm down, Jon. I didn't say it was crap.

No, sorry. I don't play guitar. I did try to learn, but I just couldn't get the hang of it. :( I do play Piano, however. (A Yamaha P-80, and a Kurzweil K2600)

My older brother is also a long-time musician. He plays guitar professionally, and I guess one reason I never got serious about stringed instruments is the whole sibling-rivalry thing..?

Which might be a blessing as, thanks in part to some scottish blood in our family tree, some of us are prone to Dupuytren's Contracture, which affects the hands. My brother is already suffering from this affliction. (I think guitars might be worse in that regard because of how you have to press down on the strings.)

And Jon, I'm not the bad guy here. I'm just trying to give you a few pointers. I've spent a lot of time in Music Stores. My brother used to work at a few.

You can totally get entry-level guitars for sub -$50 range. No problem.

And as for intermediate / advanced users, they'll already have fingering down (I suspect), and might be more interested in other features, such as tonal quality, ease of transportation, price, acoustic vs. electric (as opposed to LED-training, vs. non LED- training), etc...

Also, just to add, one of my business partners has 2 US patents on a design (which I'll email you separately) I think totally kicks ass over the LED fretboard idea you have. And, he's having SIGNIFICANT PROBLEMS generating any interest whatsoever. BTW: Not picking on your idea - just trying to make a point. It is not a cinch to break into the music manufacturing world.

Yes, don't take mine (or anybody's else's) word for it as to whether or not your idea has "legs". As you know, having "legs" is only half the battle anyway!!! If you know it'll work, go for it.

But try not to discount the opinions of others, particularly when their input doesn't seem on the surface to support that which you are truly seeking. Sometimes, that is some of the best advice you can get. Sometimes what you don't know CAN hurt you. My $0.02

Best of luck!! BTW, I do think the fiber-optic approach will work for what you're doing.

Jon,

Taken to the extreme, the fiber optic solution might look a bit like this:

Here, an entire football field is a fiber-optic display. The fiber is embedded in the artificial turf grass blades. You can instantly change the look of the field (ie., from football to soccer), or display advertising, etc.. - if the NFL would allow it?

An interesting possibility: Here, they claim the system can work in reverse - to know if a player's foot is out of bounds for example. Seems that you could use the same "technology" to rate the guitar player's accuracy when hitting the notes.

You'd have to multiplex the fiber of course (light-indicate the correct position, then turn off to detect finger press, etc.. with reasonably fast switching times and enough ambient light, etc..)

Sounds like some effort would be involved, but on the surface, seems like it could work. And now you've got a training device with feedback. That ought to be worth a patent claim or two right there.? Dump the results off to an SD memory card slot embedded slot in the neck. There's another couple claims. Or translate the reverse-fiber to MIDI, and maybe hook it to a WiFi / Bluetooth transmitter. Ideas are a dime a dozen. -mpm