PowerSonic

Don Y schreef op 08/11/2015 om 11:37 PM:

Which brand UPS? If it's APC you could/should modify the charger circuit to a lower voltage so the UPS doesn't cook the batteries. You should be able to get 5 to 8 years from a battery instead of 2 to 3 years.

Another option is to buy power supplies with a longer hold up time and ditch the UPSses. I quit using UPSses over a decade ago because the caused more outages by maintenance or failure than they helped to prevent.

If I want something that works, I use mostly PowerSonic. No quality issues, no returns, and no surprises. However, the Panasonic batteries seem to last somewhat longer. A clue is the weight of the battery. A heavier battery of the same rating has more lead, which means that it takes longer for the lead to convert permanently from lead oxide into lead sulfate. For example, I buy mostly 12v 7Amp-Hr UPS batteries. That Panasonic flavor weighs 2.47kg while the PowerSonic weighs 2.18kg or about 10% less. I've seen a few similar batteries that simply lie on the data sheet, and deliver something at about 75% the weight of the Panasonic battery. Caveat Emptor, but check the weight anyway.

I would be careful when substituting batteries. APC and others offer no adjustments to the charge rate or EOC (end of charge) settings. I've often suspected that they're trying to intentionally kill batteries just after the warranty expires. I've cooked several undersized substitute batteries with too high a charge current. I've also had nothing but problems with batteries in parallel. However, I've done quite well with using oversized batteries.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

I've only done that in the larger UPS's that are *intended* to span lengthy outages. The smaller ones are too much hassle to "access" and typically only need to span "light flicker" outages (or, just act as "outlet strips" -- *lots* of power cords, here! :< ).

Not an option. I don't run "commodity" PC's. E.g., tell me where I'll buy a "longer hold time" power supply for a Sun Blade 2000 or U60? Or, any of the 1U and 2U servers? Or even this Optiplex 745 (with a 5 pound *brick* as a power supply!)?

Really? I'd been pretty "brand loyal" to the Panny batteries over the years, shying away from the BB, etc. sorts.

PS makes a 9AHr in the same package. More money. As I'm not looking for long up-times, I'm trying to err on the "smaller" side. I put one of the 7AHr PS batteries in the (small) UPS that powers my DNS/FTP/NTP/etc. box (the network switch that the UPS also powers draws far more power than that little computer!) just to see how it fares.

Actually, some of the APC UPS's allow you to tweek this in the firmware. Others are "set and forget" at the factory :<

I wouldn't doubt it! You can usually pick up APC UPS's in the discard pile at local "hazardous waste" recycling; folks don't want to bother with replacing batteries and just toss the whole thing out.

[The same thing tends to be true of power chairs -- to a lesser extent]

Cases determine the size of the batteries that I can accommodate. Per my OP, most of these are serving as glorified "outlet strips" so I'm not keen on adding "outboard" batteries that will just take up *more* space (esp when I'm not looking for anything more than momentary up-times)

I'll pick up a pair of them for *this* machine on my next visit. Keeping network link "up", router running and PC+display in the event of reasonable outages would probably be desirable.

As I said in my OP, I'm not typically looking for any "up time" from the UPS's. The first concern is "extra outlets" -- it's virtually impossible for me to plug in device I want to use *when* I want to use it. So, I have to find a place for each power cord, permanently.

The second concern is being able to shut off those several devices that are powered up/down at the same time -- without having to reach around and find power switches hidden on back, at the bottom of the case, amidst a tangle of power/data cables, etc.

After that, I'm usually only looking for something that will keep a "light flicker" from screwing up my work -- *if* I'm actually in the middle of doing something (otherwise, things tend to flush to disk and there's no real loss).

I have a pair of 1500VA (~1000W) units with sizeable batteries that I rely on for ~10 minutes of up-time in a prolonged outage -- enough to get the genset started. The load is smart and knows how to scale itself back -- significantly -- in the event of an outage, to maximize up-time on the UPS and run-time on the genset. And, the UPS's are network connected so I can talk to them instead of just running them "open loop"

(I discarded the SmartUPS 2200's because they were just way too large, physically -- far more "battery compartment" than I'd ever need! Have to strike a balance between "capacity" and "cosmetics" -- this is a house, *first*! :>)

I'm not sure they would handle the periodic "self test" that the UPS's seem intent on performing. What I'd like most is to tweek the firmware within so the UPS behaves the way *I* want -- not the way a battery salesman wants! :-/

[I think I have a strategy for working around it's canned algorithm]

I think Panasonic batteries are better, but I get a better price for PowerSonic from the local distributor if I buy 10 or more at a time. I'm not sure of my quantities, but my guess is about 100 batteries per year, with about 75% 12v 7A.

Compare the weights. The 9 Amp-Hr will probably be heavier than the

7A. If not, then my guess(tm) is that they're doing something to increase the surface area of the plates, such as a fine grain sinterization. That works, until the first deep charge cycle. When the lead comes out of solution and gets electroplated back onto the remaining lead framework, it comes back more densely packed, which results in lower surface area and eventually lower capacity. I've measured this effect with smaller lead-acid batteries (because my small discharge tester can't handle the power from bigger batteries):

If it's stock APC, I'll give the battery 3-5 years even if you don't use it. That's about what I see on similar units. At home, the BackUPS ES 550 that I'm currently using for a footstool is good for keeping my desktop up for maybe 1 minute after about 4 years.

I found some reverse engineered or stolen APC UPS schematics on the web. I've been tempted to modify the circuitry to make improvements to the charge circuit, but have never had the time or financial inspiration. It's cheaper to just replace batteries. Or, when the UPS is on sale, it's sometimes cheaper for the customer to replace the entire unit with the latest and greatest if I include my exorbitant labor charges in the calculations.

Yep. The larger APC boxes allow for adding battery packs which requires changes to the charging profile. However, that's a rather coarse adjustment. The SmartUPS series is mostly for monitoring. There is some control, but it's mostly set points and thresholds with no control over charge currents or limits:

The real adjustments are well hidden: (Incidentally, note the authors comments on PowerSonic batteries).

I've done some of the modifications to a series of APC 1500RH abominations, with lousy success. No matter what I tried, it would continue to kill batteries. That's because it uses four 12V 7AH batteries in series+parallel for 24V operation. As an added bonus, when it finally killed the batteries, they would swell, jamming the batteries in place:

Everything is a conspiracy.

Yep. The local Batteries Plus store had a deal for a while. Buy a UPS battery from them at their usual high price and they'll give you a used UPS to go with it. People were dropping off complete UPS's with the batteries still inside. They would properly recycle the batteries, but figured that they could do something with the UPS's. I bought some of the better APC SmartUPS boxes this way.

I've given up on 117VAC UPS's for my network derangement. Most of my boxes run on either 12v DC or 5v DC negative ground. I have a 12V battery bank charged by solar in the summer and an old Statpower 10A marine charger. Most loads run off the 12V battery bank, but some of the network stuff runs from either a 12v to 12v DC-DC inverter, or a

12v to 5v DC-DC inverter. My two 24" LCD monitors are AC powered, so they run from the APC BackUPS ES 550. Or, I turn the desktops off, and run the laptop.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

The PowerSonics are less expensive to begin with (here). I used to buy them in lots of 10 from DigiKey -- but, they no longer will ship for free (so, where's the advantage of buying them in bulk?)

No idea. It was ~$6 more than the 7AH so that made the decision easy! :>

Yes, they cook the batteries as long as they are "plugged in". I can live without the batteries in several of my UPS's (they'd be useless in holding up the actual loads for any amount of time). So, just a matter of taking the time to disable the silly little noise maker.

But, that's as much work/effort (getting the UPS *out*) as anything else would be! :-/

I have something similar (chosen for its size and shape!) tucked under my dresser powering a switch and that "DNS" box.

Exactly. For me to coax a UPS out from between a couple/three machines means climbing *under* my workbench(es), reaching behind the UPS to unplug the power cords attached to it (noting that I will later have to get the cords back into the same outlets they came out of!), pull the UPS out, then squirm through the equipment present, there, to make my way to the receptacle that feeds the UPS, unplug it and disentangle the UPS's power cord prior to pulling the UPS out from under the bench -- moving it to somelace where I can work on it (other than the floor).

By contrast, I can remove and replace batteries while the UPS and the loads it feeds are still connected and POWERED UP!

This is also true of some of the smaller units (tall/slim beige towers)

Yes, that looks like similar information to what I'd found -- but in a different form.

Unfortunately, he doesn't explain his usage pattern so hard to say if the batteries were called on routinely for service, or not.

I recently tossed a pair of these: which I would have considered "worth the effort" to mod; but they were just too damn big (and heavy -- probably close to 200 pounds, EACH!)

There are lots of places, here, that recycle equipment. Things like UPS's have ZERO resale value (a laptop has *some* resale value!). So, often you're "doing them a favor" if you help take UPS's off their hands. Dead batteries have little value to you; *may* have some to the recycler (depends on whether *his* recycler considers the cost of extracting the battery from the equipment worth the value of the lead it contains) -- but the UPS itself is typically just scrap metal.

Laptops sit in "laptop bags" for most of their life. Not fond of the keyboards or display sizes (I use several monitors for *each* desktop). And, "looking down" at the display (my hands *type* much lower than my eyes are situated! :> )

As I try to travel very little, there's seldom need to drag them out.

Also, lots of peripherals that would be tedious to move away from 110VAC: scanners, motion controllers, pointing devices, disk arrays, network appliances, etc. Though I plan on migrating the automation system over to 48V (unreg) DC, eventually. I suspect that will actually be a more power-efficient solution than trying to maintain 3, 5, 12, and 48V supplies, concurrently!

If you only need a few seconds of run-time then I wonder if a bank of supercapacitors would be an effective substitute for the lead acid battery. You'd probably need some voltage balancing circuit but that could perhaps be quite simple.

Probably supercapacitors would cost much more than several replacements of the lead acid batteries but it might go longer without maintenance, or be more likely to work when required, in the absence of regular maintenance.

I have read that supercapacitors do degrade if left charged, and it might be worth putting more capacitors in series than the minimum number, so that each capacitor is running at a lower voltage and degrades less quickly.

Chris

PowerSonic batteries appear to be near or at the top of the line.

In PC supplies, there is what i call a "keep-alive" capacitor, and in the early daze (1980s-1990s) drop-outs were "common", and installing a larger "keep-alive" capacitor solved the problem. That was for the old AT supplies. AFAIK the newer ATX supplies use the larger "keep-alive" capacitor; never seen one that failed (ie: "needing" the UPS for a few seconds of drop-out).

And APC UPSes are so dang reliable that a scrapped 10+ year-old one worked before re-charging. Took another 5 years before i had to replace the battery. It is now still working on that second (yes, PowerSonic) battery at 7 years now.

Don Y schreef op 08/12/2015 om 07:10 PM:

You make me start to wonder what kind of business you have which requires that amount of hardware.

Regarding outlets: I have a lot of them under my desks so I can plugin whatever I want wherever I want without needing to contort myself. I'm going to redo my desks soon and then I'll replace the outlets with extension blocks (each has a switch) which are fed by several fixed outlets.

And it might be cheaper and simpler with a backup generator.

We are in an area that the building will guarantee uptime. Namely, no down time for more than few seconds. So, we've been running "naked" (no UPS) for 40 days. Before that, it was another 30 days until system maintenance.

If there is outage, they might have to buy me a last minute plane ticket to come in, but might still be cheaper than UPSs.

I do hardware design, software design, specification/documentation (*formal*) preparation, etc. Trying to do all of this on *one* (or three) machines is simply impractical. Too many dependencies that tend to break when you try to force a machine to do too many things -- especially if you want it to be able to do them *well*! (e.g., is your monitor color corrected so you can prepare photoready artwork for the printer and

*know* what it WILL look like? What about your scanner? Printer??) [Anticipating your comment, below...]

E.g., I have a machine that is used *just* as my VCS repository (I wouldn't want to risk "accidentally" erasing a significant chunk of a project's past history because of a careless error typing on a "command console" -- so, don't allow interactive logins on that machine!); another machine for document preparation; another for hardware/mechanical design; another for software; another for multimedia presentations; one for my "development" RDBMS server; etc. There are 8 machines in the office for these various purposes -- so, 8 "plugs" (not counting any peripherals that they require).

Of course, you can only (practically) share monitors on a few machines before it gets tedious (KVM switches). And, often I may want to have a specification-in-progress "open" in a DTP tool while I'm using my hardware workstation to prepare/extract some bit of technical info from a physical device. Just like looking at a datasheet, schematic and PCB layout simultaneously! In my case, that leaves me with 7 monitors (2+3+2) and, 7 "plugs".

Add in the four scanners (A w/ADF, B, "film" and "slide"); Unisite; 24 port switch; 4 NAS's; 3 printers (one of which requires an external print server to gain network connectivity -- another wall wart!); 2 X-terminals; tablet; cordless headphone (charging base); personal stereo; 8 or 9 external "removable media" drives (3.5" & 5" MO, DLT, 8mm, etc.); 2 inspection lamps; ...

Note, I haven't addressed anything that does NOT require a power cord! Or, any of the less frequently used peripherals stashed in the closet (DSO, Logic Analyzer, DMM, hot air station, etc. -- *building* and debugging hardware takes very little PERSISTENT time/space!)

I have two 6-outlet strips fastened to the underside of each (of three) workbenches. Any "large" equipment (computers, disk arrays, etc.) that can afford to be located on the floor, sits under the benches. Other items (monitors, scanners, pointing devices, NAS's, etc.) sit on top.

[Still other devices reside in other rooms]

From the list, above, you can see there are a lot of cords/wall warts dangling down/up from those 36 outlets -- more cords *than* outlets! And, with *just* 6 power switches available, it's almost impossible to use them individually. Hence the UPS's.

The larger UPS's are intended to backup my automation server. It can draw up to 2000W during operation (seldom anywhere near that). So, my original thought was "big batteries" (hence the SUA2200's and all their *mass*).

I've rethought that approach and now figure it is more prudent to let the system shed responsibilities (and, thus, power requirements) in prolonged outages. E.g., maybe you don't need to monitor weather conditions; or recognize guests approaching the front door...) So, the smaller 1500VA units should better address the power and

*cosmetic* needs!

And, in my case, rely on a genset to provide backup power instead of storing all that *lead* in a closet!

More biscotti coming out of the oven. Probably the last of the humid days (Monsoon seems to be just about over) so today will be my last attempt to tweek Rx's until Winter rains...

I used to have several machines for the same reason as well but since a couple of months I have one machine (and a backup) and run multiple virtual machines for various tasks. Works well and hopefully the new machine pays for itself in electricity savings.

I don't do much print work so no calibrated monitors here.

Only 36 outlets? I think I have about 100 under my desk/workbench (7.4 meters / 22 feet long in total). I bought 10 6-outlet strips to mount underneath my new desk and maybe salvage a few from the current desk to add some more.

Then you run out of I/O. If I wanted to host *all* of my peripherals on a single box (in different VM's) I'd need:

- two PCIe video cards to drive the monitors (2x2)

- two serial ports (motion controller and tablet)

- two parallel ports (printers; can only do certain things when "hardwired")

- SE and 2 or 3 LVD SCSI HBA's (scanners, disk arrays, removable media drives)

- multiple USB controllers (so I can move video through them)

- *many* disk bays for the VM's (e.g., each workstation spins 1TB)

And, I'd have to repeat the exercise for the SPARC VM's on SPARC hardware.

This also assumes I'd be willing to look at *just* 3 or 4 screens at a time (instead of having specific on each screen so I'm not playing "musical windows" constantly)

So, you probably don't have 3 or 4 different color printers (in addition to the generic monochrome). Or, calibrated scanners, etc.

My bench is arranged in a "U" -- 80" x 112" x 80" -- so, about 18 ft if you "unfolded" it. There are three, nominal, "work positions" -- one on each of the three "sides". So, three places for keyboard/mouse/monitors.

With 8 UPS's in the room, I have 48 additional outlets -- and 8 more "power switches". So, I can put the power cord for the documentation station, the wall wart for its inspection camera, power cords for the two scanners most closely associated with that "specialty", etc. on *that* UPS and be able to shut down all of those devices with one power button.

[Likewise, be able to *unplug* them from the wall outlet in the event of a severe electrical storm -- just by unplugging the UPS.]

Meanwhile, put the three monitors shared between the hardware and software development workstations on a single "monitor UPS" so I can turn all of them on regardless of which of the workstations I happen to be using.

Another UPS to keep the NAS's up.

Etc.

The outlet strips under the benches end up just being used for "singleton" devices:

- inspection lamps

- X Terminals (just need a power cord, mouse and keyboard)

- A size scanners (which find use in day to day applications)

- printers (network accessible so anything might choose to use one)

- wireless headphones (charging base)

- personal stereo

- external USB drives (used to move large quantities of data offsite) etc. I also have two long, heavy "modular power cords" that are permanently "plugged in" so I can bring something into the room and NOT have to crawl under a bench to find an outlet -- just grab the "loose cord" and mate it to the device. When done, unplug and toss it into a corner for the next use!

[Plus, the bundle of network cables fastened to the underside of the table (so I don't have to fumble around on the ground to find them amongst the power/serial/parallel/SCSI cables that gravity keeps down there)]

Over the years, I've tried different approaches to "economize" on hardware -- mainly, to conserve *space* (money hasn't been an issue). I've had machines that would multiboot *4* different OS's. Machines where I physically swapped out the system disk(s) to run a different OS (and set of applications), etc.

Dedicated machines seems to have become the least painful option. I don't worry about updating *everything* just because I need more MIPS in the CAD machine. Or, because I need to support FW drives in the documentation machine. Just get a machine doing what it *needs* to do, and leave it! Find another few cubic feet to cram it into (I have machines in almost every room of the house, for some purpose or other -- e.g., I'm typing in the dining room) and just count on it being there when you need it.

USB-serial converters solve that however my 'new' PC still has a real serial port. And PS/2 ports for keyboard and mouse.

I have replaced all hardware that needs a real printer port. Too messy to deal with anyway.

You can solve that partially by having all the data on the VM host and share data through the 'network'. That is how I have set it up.

Nope. I have been thinking about getting a color laserprinter for a while though but not for print quality stuff.

Pfew...

My desk is slightly off the wall and I'm using the wall mounts to hang IEC mains cables from. When I need to connect something I just grab one of those cables and plug it in. Done: just put the mains cable back. I have a cable-free-floor policy.

I have slotted cable ducts under my desk to run the cables through. I used to have 40x80mm but that wasn't enough. When I built my current desk (>15 years ago) I used 100x80mm slotted ducts. I'll re-use those in my rebuild but this time I'll run the mains supply cables through seperate pipes (and actually add an extra group to double the power so I can use a total of 7kW -in theory-). Still... getting all the cables out and back in will be a lot of work with lots of irritating dust.

It seems you have more legacy hardware than me. One of the reasons to cut the number of machines down for me was the amount of noise in my office.

I'd love to see pictures of that :-)

USBanything converters invariably fall down -- if doing anything other than RdTd comms.

My Phasers don't accept font downloads (internal hard disk) from the network connection.

So, now all my applications, etc. have to be NFS/SMB mounted? Where's the performance in *that*?

I can scan a photo and print a nearly identical copy of it. Requires scanner and printer to be calibrated to each other. Likewise, can create artwork (stills or video) and see what they will *really* look like -- not biased by the peculiarities of the particular monitor and its settings.

Without this, you end up visiting service bureau frequently for "proofs". An interactive job turns into a service bureau ordeal.

It was also an opportunity to learn about another aspect of that "job" that I'd never have been aware, previously. Like someone who designs schematics but never lays out a PCB. Or, writes code but never designs hardware.

Ditto, but we don't put anything on/in the plaster walls. Even hanging a painting requires careful deliberation: "We're going to make *one* hole, right?? Where is *it* going to be??"

So, any "supports" have to be in something disposable -- the benches!

As virtually all of my "big" pieces of equipment are on the floor, I can't do that. Power cords, SCSI cables, printer cables, etc. all effectively rest on the floor (because the machines at which they originate are located there).

The only power cords that fly are those feeding the devices on the tops of the benches. Plus the bundle of ~20 network cables.

[Running network cables on the floor would be a non-starter; the first time you tugged on one to remove it, it would get tangled and/or snap off the damn little tabs on the connector ends (even with boots, the cables don't take to much abuse)]

I used D-clips on the underside of the back edge of the bench (which is closest to where the cables end up *and* farthest from my legs as they slide under the bench). Adding and removing cables is relatively easy. The biggest problem is "trimming to length". I have no *excess* service loops; a cable starts at the switch and ends at a particular "device". If that device needs to be "slid out" in order to gain access to the rear, then there is a service loop just long enough to support that motion.

As a result, I label each cable with its actual length. When I need to add or replace a device, I can look at the lengths of the cables feeding the devices on either side of it and make an educated guess as to how long a cable I will need -- so I don't have to trial-and-error.

I have probably had to support a longer "legacy" of products. A client could show up wanting/demanding a fix to a bug on something that I designed back in the 80's. If I can't recover the tools that I used to do that, a "quick fix" can turn into a very expensive undertaking (bug fixes are free; forever).

E.g., I still keep an ISA-bus machine (Compaq Portable 386 "lunchbox") to support an OpusV system that I used to layout some PCB's aeons ago (DASH-PCB) and some other odds and ends that I reverse engineered in about the same timeframe. If I ever find myself with "spare time" AND it precipitates to the top of the pile, I'll recover whatever needs to be recovered from that box and toss it. For the time being, it's less effort to stuff it in a corner of a closet than to address it, now.

Noise isn't usually a problem; I listen to music through headphones (so *I* don't hear it) and I can't turn on more than one of the "noisey" machines (servers) without compromising power availability (it's just a *bedroom*).

SWMBO is not particularly happy about it. OTOH, when the DVD player crapped out and I could just pull a laptop out of a case and hook an SVideo cable to the TV so she could watch the movie she was interested in...

When she grumbles too much, I remind her of the *F* sized drawing cabinet that sits in her "art room". And the full sized easel. And the drafting table. And the supply cabinet. And, the fact that pots *and* kettles are BOTH black! :>

Again, I'm late to the party, but here goes...

For 12 V PbA "gel cell" batteries from about 4 to 10 Ah nominal ratings, in UPS-type indoor service, I have found Panasonic and PowerSonic brand batteries to work the best - to go for the most cycles. PowerSonics used to be made in Mexico, but some recent ones I got were made in China, so I'm not sure if they are still as good. I put a set of Chinese PowerSonics (12 V, 7 Ah) in the UPS for my main desktop in mid-2013 and I don't have any complaints yet; ask me in a few more years. :)

One kink particular to the PbA 12 V 7 Ah nominal size: they exist in the world with both 3/16" (0.1875", 4.76 mm) and 1/4" (0.25", 6.35 mm) male push-on terminals. PowerSonic sells adapters that will make a battery with 1/4" push-on male terminals fit a wire with 3/16" push-on female terminals.

Standard disclaimers apply: I don't get money or other consideration from any companies mentioned.

Matt Roberds