Political - what has gone wrong that the RATES of this is increasing

=20

When you read something that sensational, you need to dig deeper.

"Still, it is the length of sentences that truly distinguishes American pri= son policy. Indeed, the mere number of sentences imposed here would not pla= ce the United States at the top of the incarceration lists. If lists were c= ompiled based on annual admissions to prison per capita, several European c= ountries would outpace the United States. But American prison stays are muc= h longer, so the total incarceration rate is higher. ... "Rises and falls i= n Canada's crime rate have closely paralleled America's for 40 years," Mr. = Tonry wrote last year. "But its imprisonment rate has remained stable."

So, it would seem the RATE is not increasing.=20

Gopnik is being a little dishonest referring 'mass incarceration' and then = including those people on parole and probation. Remove all the dramatic la= nguage and comparisons and you're not left with much. Stalin had a much hi= gher rate of execution, deliberate starvation and death from exposure and b= rutalization, as well as general terror. If you really want fewer people i= n jail, that's one way of managing it.

rison policy. Indeed, the mere number of sentences imposed here would not p= lace the United States at the top of the incarceration lists. If lists were= compiled based on annual admissions to prison per capita, several European= countries would outpace the United States. But American prison stays are m= uch longer, so the total incarceration rate is higher. ... "Rises and falls= in Canada's crime rate have closely paralleled America's for 40 years," Mr= . Tonry wrote last year. "But its imprisonment rate has remained stable."

n including those people on parole and probation. =A0Remove all the dramati= c language and comparisons and you're not left with much. =A0Stalin had a m= uch higher rate of execution, deliberate starvation and death from exposure= and brutalization, as well as general terror. =A0If you really want fewer = people in jail, that's one way of managing it.

the simplest way of getting less people in jail would be to stop the war on drugs and let it be a personal choice of you want to do something stupid, already is when it comes to alcohol, nikotine etc.

but that would ruin the drug lords and drug dealers, put a lot of police men, agents, prison workers, prison owners, police gadget makers etc. out of work so that isn't likely to happen

unless they can find some other war to replace it, like when the war on drugs replaced prohibition

maybe that is really what all the work on SOPA, PIPA etc. is about

-Lasse

having been burglarized twice and having my step son get held up with a gun recently, As far as I am concerned we can put 25% of the population in prison if that's what it takes to get the animals off the streets. Better yet, let every non-felon person over the age of

25 carry any weapon anywhere they want , and anyone under 25 or any felon cannot carry , and can be shot dead on the spot for violating such law.

Yikes! no. The problem with addictions (and drugs of addiction) is that the addict can't say no even though they know they should - e.g. problem gamblers who piss away their (and their spouse and kids) house and savings. Its much worse with the drugs that directly affect the pleasure centers of the brain.

--
We have failed to address the fundamental truth that endless growth is  
impossible in a finite world.

Seriously, do you think that is working? The US has the highest levels of gun ownership ( BTWI like guns), and amongst the highest levels of incarceration but still high levels of crime.

(yes I'm a little bit left - but not so naive as to believe in no jails - just that the current approach is not working)

--
We have failed to address the fundamental truth that endless growth is  
impossible in a finite world.

[apologies if a double post -- network went down *as* I hit SEND]

Hi David,

[attributions elided]

This is an *amazingly* complex problem! Over the years, I've had several, widely differing views on the "solution" (We're engineers. Solving puzzles is what we're all about! :> ). I've now convinced myself that it's beyond my skillset. :<

When I was younger, I used to think drinking, smoking, drugs, etc. were just "fads" that people went through. Sort of like acne: you'll outgrow it! As I got older, I realized that there are alot of "weak" people out there (whether an issue of self-discipline or biochemistry) and many people never *do* "grow out of it"!

Clearly, letting people do what they want TO THEMSELVES would be (almost) ideal (who takes care of your kids once you're toast?). But, people are NOT "responsible" -- else this would never have become a problem.

["Drunks" are just as bad as "druggies" -- perhaps moreso because they don't have legal pressure reminding them that what they are doing is "Wrong"]

OTOH, locking people up sure doesn't seem to be doing anything to fix the problem. There's just as much collateral damage with each approach. (An 80-year-old couple down the street were victims of a violent home invasion because the "druggies" got the address of their intended "victim" wrong).

"Simple" solutions say more about the folks proposing them than the problems they purport to address:

"Just say 'no'!" (to drugs) "Just stop eating!" "Just quit!" (smoking) "Just get some exercise!" "Just avoid sugar/fat/salt/rhubarb!" etc.

That's disingenuous. The fact is that guns are not permitted in many places; places with the worst crime. The right of self defense correlates well with a lower violent crime rate.

It's too far left to work.

No it doesn't - not on a world scale. Western Europe has tighter gun controls and 60% percent less gun ownership on a population basis AND it has 17% less homicides. The figures are statistically significant. It is not a blip.

(The Euro figures also points out that those who say 'no guns = no homicides' are also wrong - the drop is only 17% not 60%. There is some basis for saying if someone want to murder they will use whatever the can).

--
We have failed to address the fundamental truth that endless growth is  
impossible in a finite world.

(snip google Group's indent screwups)

And of course, suffer the direct and indirect (medical and social) consequences of their choices.

Thing is, lawmakers and enforcers see these as crimes of morality. The cure is to root out that kind of thinking. Good luck, in our "Xtian Nation".

It would help if lawmakers could be weaned off their addiction to making specialized laws to deal with what I call hyphenated crimes- drug-crimes, sex-crimes, and so on.

An assault should be prosecuted as an assault no matter the identity, age, or other "special" status of the victim, or whether a controlled substance was involved. Same for murder, theft, rape, or whatever. I see no sense in modulating the severity of a sentence based on some hot-button characteristic of a victim or "special" circumstance.

There are other issues here, like drug-testing to get and keep a job. I still want to know why full-spectrum drug testing isn't mandatory for politicians seeking office, and random testing for those in office.

And help prevent stupid, illegal acts by "well-meaning" law enforcement, like giving guns to drug cartels.

I won't even go into the possible corruption of lawmakers and enforcers taking money from cartels to let most of the traffic through while making occasional "show busts".

Also consider that the drug lords etc. would have to find some new "line of work" as well.

In my opinion, much of that is "job security" thinking by lawmakers and enforcers, helped along by Hollywood lobbyists.

Mark L. Fergerson

...

is

f

ll

).

don't know the statics for the world, but here something like 50% of homocides are by a family member, friend or partner of the victim, less than 20% are total strangers

-Lasse

*That* is incredibly disingenuous! Society varies a *lot* across the world. Not so much across the street.

Pansies usually do have trouble pulling a trigger ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
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I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Who did the killing is rather irrelevant to stats based on how many were done. Except if you want to make the point that gun ownership neither hinders nor assists in developing stable reltionships.

--
We have failed to address the fundamental truth that endless growth is  
impossible in a finite world.

How is this disingenuous? It is a comparison between two similar sized, industrialized, western, prosperous economies. The only way this is disingenuous is if you feel that homicidal tendencies are a feature of American culture (for the record I don't) and there for it is unfair to make that comparison

You're inescapable of reading two sentences in a row?

Of course it is. Always has been. Are you claiming that the Japanese society, for instance, is the same as in the US? What a silly idea.

What incredible braindead hypothetical crap. The s*****ad author had never been in any prison, not even a holding cell or a "drunk tank", it = is painfully clear to anyone who has or even knows anyone who has.

?-(((

s

What has that got to do with the argument? America imprisons too many people for too long. Nobody else finds it useful to keep so many people in prison, and it doesn't seem to be making the US better or safer than any other advanced industrial country.

Inspecting the contents of a prison, a holding cell or a drunk tank isn't going to make the slightest difference to that argument, and you'd have to be brain-dead to think that it might.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

You're an idiot. We let true criminals back out onto the streets because the jails are filled with dope USERS because the retarded gang activity complacent pigs are not competent enough to actually get the real criminals off the street.

You have no concept of population densities, much less economical factors. What we need are more prisons, and they need to be HARD LABOR farms, and you either shape up, or you do MORE time.

You either work toward getting your time reduced, OR you do ALL of it. There is no "get ganged up out in the yard and work out" crap.

Rape and murder means you never set foot on free soil again. Molest? Same thing. Rape would even cost you your balls and or your dick as well in MY world.

In MY world, fear of incarceration actually WOULD be a crime deterrent.

There should be a devil's island for the WORLD'S worst criminals. That way, you could fear yet another penalty.

The problem today is that idiot criminal wanna bes have no fear of penalization for their acts. So the retarded bastards proliferate, and now we even have parents that raise their kids to be like them. Criminals.

And you think we are too harsh? We are not even close to being harsh enough!

Public executions need to return too. Required to be attended by all parolees at the time at least once a year.

How did you lose yours?