Peak Electric Usage

Or it's running resistive heat. Mine runs resistive (AUX) if it's less than about 35-40F outside.

Reply to
krw
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Oh, sure. Our first house was in a development of raised-ranch (split foyer), all with[*] oil-fired hydronic heat. The heat for the upper floor was run under the floor in the cantilevered area, with no insulation. They all froze.

[*] all with avocado refrigerators and harvest gold ovens. Interesting place
Reply to
krw

Come on! It's 100% efficient! Can't get better than that. ;-)

It's not expensive at all. It's only used when it's too cold for the heat pump to operate. Most days it's not cold enough to need the resistive heat, so it works. Electricity is pretty cheap, too. I think our worst electric bill this Winter was about $250. Months with no heat or AC run just under $100.

Reply to
krw

What don't you understand? I am comparing the power usage in the summer an d the winter.

In my case the AC draws a peak of 4 kW while the heating peak is close to 1

2 kW. Obviously residential power usage is not the heavy hitter the indust ry claims. Either that or there are a lot of homes that don't use electric coils as backkup heat. I haven't seen many of them. Once in a while I se e an oil burner that has been retro fitted with a heat pump but any new ins tallation of heat pumps uses electric coils for backup heat.

BTW, where do you get your numbers for AC power draw?

Rick C.

Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

How are shade trees going to reduce the winter heating costs at night?

Rick C.

Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 11:29:06 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wro te:

te:

ate afternoon. But looking at my hourly electrical usage over the course o f the year, it is clear the peak residential usage for anyone with a heat p ump is in the winter at night. My peak usage during the summer was less th an 4 kW in any given hour. My winter peak was more like 12 kW and run like that from 7 PM to 11 AM. I saw this on six different days this season.

er, but it sure seems like the difference between 4 kW and 12 kW for all th ose heat pumps would make a big dent in the power supply. Are the other us ages of electrical power really that shut down on winter nights so that sum mer day usage is dominant?

on the auxiliary electric heat, usually when the measured indoor air temper ature falls below 3oF of the setpoint, which means the heat pump can't keep up. You might invest in better insulation and air sealing your abode, and then decide if you need to upgrade.

I think you know little of residential heating. There are three conditions when the back up heat will run. One of them is simply that the outside te mperature is low enough, in my case it is set for around 26 degrees F. I d on't have any control over that, I've asked and the maker doesn't allow the user access to that setting.

Rick C.

Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

air box for those days when it is so cold there is just not enough heat out there to pump. If it is turning that element on you are draining about as much as an electric furnace, which is substantial.

Resistive heating is 100% efficient. It is expensive compared to other met hods, but it is cheaper than installing other methods. Since it is only us ed a relatively small percentage of the time, it is a tradeoff that often f alls to the side of saving the money on installation.

What no one seems to grasp is that the peak residential usage is not in the summer at all, but in the winter nights. So if the electrical system as a whole has a peak usage on summer days there must be other power usages tha t are more significant.

Rick C.

Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

Resistive heating of anything is 100% efficient at turning high grade electricity into the lowest grade of thermal energy. If you want to warm a room up quickly then a fan heater isn't such a bad way to do it.

If you have any alternatives like oil or gas available then they are preferable since you get the benefit of all of the heat of combustion without turbine and transmission losses along the way.

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

Europe is a big place spanning everything from sub Arctic to hot Mediterranean climates. UK has rather damp grey wet winters.

If you can do it cheaper with gas or oil why would you use electricity for space heating?

Depends on the working fluid. It gets harder the bigger the difference between the source and the destination you are trying to pump it. In the UK air source heat pumps are almost useless in winter because they ice up in humid air when you try to steal heat from the environment.

I expect they would work in Germany like they did when we lived in Japan. A dry continental climate is fine for air source heat pumps.

I don't heat my house at all from 11pm until 6am (a frost stat kicks in if the loft space gets below 4C to protect water pipes) - it relies on thermal inertia to hold its temperature when unheated.

You could certainly drop the night time temperature to 14C and save money without noticeably compromising comfort. Lower still in unused rooms - don't US CH systems have zoning to only heat the parts of the house that are actively being lived in?

The core of my house is nearly 3' thick solid stone walls in places and holds a lot of heat in winter and helps keep the house cool in summer with mere passive management of opening and closing windows.

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 2:15:55 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrot e:

rote:

rote:

late afternoon. But looking at my hourly electrical usage over the course of the year, it is clear the peak residential usage for anyone with a heat pump is in the winter at night. My peak usage during the summer was less than 4 kW in any given hour. My winter peak was more like 12 kW and run li ke that from 7 PM to 11 AM. I saw this on six different days this season.

ower, but it sure seems like the difference between 4 kW and 12 kW for all those heat pumps would make a big dent in the power supply. Are the other usages of electrical power really that shut down on winter nights so that s ummer day usage is dominant?

n on the auxiliary electric heat, usually when the measured indoor air temp erature falls below 3oF of the setpoint, which means the heat pump can't ke ep up. You might invest in better insulation and air sealing your abode, an d then decide if you need to upgrade.

ns when the back up heat will run. One of them is simply that the outside temperature is low enough, in my case it is set for around 26 degrees F. I don't have any control over that, I've asked and the maker doesn't allow t he user access to that setting.

I think you know little of basic physics. It is rare for systems to use an outdoor temperature reading to lockout the compressor, they exist, but they 're rare. If your residence was properly insulated, rather than a hovel, on e approach would be to overheat into the 70-75oF range while the heat pump is still functional, and then setback to 65o or so when the lockout is acti vated. The auxiliary heat may not come on at all before the heat pump recov ers funtionality.

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

Well, if something makes sense on its own merits it doesn't need subsidy, does it?

Hence, we only subsidize things that don't make sense. ;-)

I've got single-pane windows, spotty insulation, and air leaks beau coup. I could fix all that for about $20k and save half of that extra $30 I spend monthly, heating from Dec.-Feb.

So where's my subsidy?

Actually, that *would* be subsidized. I could steal about 1/3rd of the cost from taxpayers--'green jobs,' 'stimulus,' 'save the planet' by consuming more, and all that jazz...

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 11:41:19 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr ote:

ote:

he late afternoon. But looking at my hourly electrical usage over the cour se of the year, it is clear the peak residential usage for anyone with a he at pump is in the winter at night. My peak usage during the summer was les s than 4 kW in any given hour. My winter peak was more like 12 kW and run like that from 7 PM to 11 AM. I saw this on six different days this season .

power, but it sure seems like the difference between 4 kW and 12 kW for al l those heat pumps would make a big dent in the power supply. Are the othe r usages of electrical power really that shut down on winter nights so that summer day usage is dominant?

urn on the auxiliary electric heat, usually when the measured indoor air te mperature falls below 3oF of the setpoint, which means the heat pump can't keep up. You might invest in better insulation and air sealing your abode, and then decide if you need to upgrade.

ions when the back up heat will run. One of them is simply that the outsid e temperature is low enough, in my case it is set for around 26 degrees F. I don't have any control over that, I've asked and the maker doesn't allow the user access to that setting.

n outdoor temperature reading to lockout the compressor, they exist, but th ey're rare. If your residence was properly insulated, rather than a hovel, one approach would be to overheat into the 70-75oF range while the heat pum p is still functional, and then setback to 65o or so when the lockout is ac tivated. The auxiliary heat may not come on at all before the heat pump rec overs funtionality.

I think you know little of actual heating and cooling systems and even less of human physiology. When you learn something come back and we can talk. No point in discussing an issue with someone who thinks they know it all a nd actually knows little about the topic.

Rick C.

Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

Swamp coolers used to be common in the San Fernando valley north of Los(t) Angeles, but they were eventually banned.

Arid places with humidity suitable for swamp coolers, often have water scarcity incompatible with same.

What's really cool is that SoCal Edison, for example, subsidizes LED light bulbs in CA in exchange for being allowed to recoup the cost through higher rates.

Meanwhile, the rest of the country enjoys much lower prices on LED bulbs marked "Not for sale outside California."

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

Why that?

Ours uses to little water that it never makes a dent in the water bill. It's down in the noise. Of course, one shall not operate them with an excessive bleed kit or dump the pan water every day. That's not necessary.

My impression is that it is similar up here. You spend co siderable money out of pocket to conserve and then get punished for it.

And Governor Moonbeam does nothing about it.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

The logic doesn't make much sense. "I always hear the peak electrical power usage is in the summer in the late afternoon" is correct. Most people do not use electric heat pumps but nearly everyone in warmer parts of the country uses A/C.

That is weird. We had a heat pump in Germany (one out of two residence in a town of pop 25,000). Ok, it was an air-to-water heat pump which is a bit more efficient but not that much. It always remained under 4kW and it gets really cold over there. Maybe someone could check your heat pump?

There aren't many of them left at least here in California. Heat pumps were pushed decades ago and then the people who fell for that got fleeced. They often still are because not everyone can switch to a gas system.

We heat exclusively with wood now. That reminds me that I have to try the central heat and A/C, neither has run in years.

From the compressor rating and actual measurements. It's a big house though, about 3000 sqft. Often I wish I could pipe a swamp cooler into the actual duct circuit but that corner is so tight that it isn't reasonably possible. The house is Frank Lloyd Wright style and while offering an almost timeless architecture that does have its downsides.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply to
Joerg

is grey water all reused there then?

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 11:52:00 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wro te:

the late afternoon. But looking at my hourly electrical usage over the co urse of the year, it is clear the peak residential usage for anyone with a heat pump is in the winter at night. My peak usage during the summer was l ess than 4 kW in any given hour. My winter peak was more like 12 kW and ru n like that from 7 PM to 11 AM. I saw this on six different days this seas on.

al power, but it sure seems like the difference between 4 kW and 12 kW for all those heat pumps would make a big dent in the power supply. Are the ot her usages of electrical power really that shut down on winter nights so th at summer day usage is dominant?

turn on the auxiliary electric heat, usually when the measured indoor air temperature falls below 3oF of the setpoint, which means the heat pump can' t keep up. You might invest in better insulation and air sealing your abode , and then decide if you need to upgrade.

itions when the back up heat will run. One of them is simply that the outs ide temperature is low enough, in my case it is set for around 26 degrees F . I don't have any control over that, I've asked and the maker doesn't all ow the user access to that setting.

an outdoor temperature reading to lockout the compressor, they exist, but they're rare. If your residence was properly insulated, rather than a hovel , one approach would be to overheat into the 70-75oF range while the heat p ump is still functional, and then setback to 65o or so when the lockout is activated. The auxiliary heat may not come on at all before the heat pump r ecovers funtionality.

ss of human physiology. When you learn something come back and we can talk . No point in discussing an issue with someone who thinks they know it all and actually knows little about the topic.

And this criticism coming from someone who thinks electric heat is "100% ef ficient?" You have the mentality of a demented person.

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

Don't most aircons have the option to move heat in either direction? The one we had in Japan would heat the home in winter and cool it in summer. It was better at cooling than warming but it didn't have to do very much of the latter - for a Brit the Japanese winters are shirt sleeve weather (apart from every now and then when it snows).

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

I was told 'water conservation,' but poking around, I couldn't find anything banning swamp coolers in CA, and did find a few items at energy.ca.gov describing swamp cooler regulations and performance.

So, chalk that 'ban' up to urban myth--they don't seem to be banned.

Here are 300+ pages of specs and regulations from The People Who Know Better (but who exempt their capitol city from smog requirements) covering toilets, light bulbs, and swamp coolers. (The PWKB think of everything!):

formatting link

I really don't mind 90-100F occasionally; I only use a/c occasionally for humidity control, to prevent mildew.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

I'm not sure currently, but when I wanted to do that 20 years ago it was illegal. I just wanted to water the garden with laundry water, but that wasn't allowed.

Unless you're the city, of course, which sprayed 'reclaimed' water onto sorts of fabulous features using the lossiest possible delivery method to maintain grass in the desert wherever it was needed most (e.g., alongside freeways).

During one long drought perhaps 20 years ago, it was declared illegal to wash your car or water your lawn, and households were restricted to 50 gallons per person per day. The state took out ads explaining the need--just washing your car could use 200 gallons, maybe even a billion! And whatever you do don't flush that toilet!

Police patrolled for violators, and neighbors were encouraged to snitch on each other via state-run telephone 'hotlines.' I, meanwhile, washed my car easily with a gallon bucket filled not even quite full, just twice.

California is overrun [pun intended] by idiots.

My brother and I and his kid continued all the above proscribed activities, semi-clandestinely (to avoid getting fined), and used less than 50 gallons a day, together, all three of us, while others moaned that 50 gals per person was impossible to meet.

Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

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