OT: Best way to tell a customer 'No thanks'

I believe telling like it is, is good policy. Only once have I lost future business and it was a case where the medium grade boss had his mind made up about the answer/solution beforehand. They ignored me and paid the price for it later. I don't care for customers of that type.... Good riddance.

Do you have a contact there that you can talk to, frankly? That's better than putting things like this in writing. Maybe they need to convene a peace conference, after which you could step in and organize the procedures. Then you'd be a real hero. And if the peace-conference doesn't come off, they'd understand that your face-saving rejection (too busy, my dog is sick, whatever) wouldn't shoot down future biz.

I was consulting for E**a, a backplane-cardcage company. The project involved two groups who engaged in violent armored warfare across the small parking lot, with occasional shouting matches in conference rooms. I had to bail.

John

Doncha just hate that?

John

Yep ;-)

But the funniest thing ever to happen to me was having a big corporate competitor decide to low ball a bid to take business away from me.

The customer awarded the job to me anyway. They "smelled" the attempt ;-)

...Jim Thompson

When L*C***, who used to make CAMAC instruments, heard that I was going to bid against them, they cut their price in half. My customers at Los Alamos disqualified them on technical grounds.

So I'll never buy their oscilloscopes. Which are weird anyhow.

John

On Sep 29, 6:47=EF=BF=BDpm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrot= e:

to burn my

Damn. That rules out having Sarah Palin deliver the news!

I would bid the job high and hope you don't get it. And if you do get it, invest a portion of your windfall into some leadership training for the manager in question. You'll likely find the problem is with the origanization, and not any particular individual. That's usually the way it goes, even though it hardly ever looks that way at the outset until you drill deep enough..

-mpm

burn my

Bush is out in a few months, so the leftist weenies have to redirect their hate. You really should see a psychologist about that. It'll kill you.

Look, if you are going to be a "consultant" don't expect that you'll be able to sit at your desk with these nice neat little cool engineering problems that you can have fun with. The rule with being a consultant is that nobody will EVER call you unless the problem is ALREADY a nightmare! Your job is to "solve the problem". And if that takes people skills, then swallow hard and dredge them up from the depth of your being. Be totally honest about whatever you find and what it takes to fix it. Don't pussy-foot around. Act like you own the place, because for the time in essence you do. You won't have to work with these guys forever like they will with each other!

My advice is to bid the thing as high as possible. (Hey if they weren't in deep shit already they wouldn't be begging you to come and fix it. Fixing deep shit problems always costs big money!) Exude confidence even if you haven't a clue how to get people on the same page. Since the source of the problem has retired you actually may have a shot at fixing things. Do not hesitate in the least when telling the company how to fix the "people problems". Do not try to save feelings. If the company won't take the steps you suggest to fix things, then you are off the hook. But it's still always best to try to get them to fix it rather than point to them and say "they wouldn't do what I suggested". After all, a fixed problem enhances your reputation so you get that NEXT nightmare when someone else is in deep shit! Charge them even more!

The .45 is probably a good solution although it'd probably be best to use a rhetorical .45 rather than a real one.

On Sep 30, 12:00=EF=BF=BDam, krw wrote: =EF=BF=BDYou really should see a psychologist about that. =EF=BF=BD

"Thanks, but no thanks." :)

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Paul,

If you're certain you don't want to take a crack at it, you could mention your current workload and offer some idea of when, due to prior commitments, you might be able to properly devote your talents to their problem. (Yes, that response can cover a lot of different situations, and you don't actually _have_ to mention contingencies related to weather reports from the Nether Regions. )

On the other hand, if you have a bit of think-time available, you might develop (but possibly not send) a proposal that addresses the full extent of the customer's problem(s) as you understand them. That is -- and other posters have alluded to this -- what would it take in terms of your time and other resources to get the work crews and the engineers working together? In addition to whatever work they originally asked you to do, that is.

For the proposal I have in mind, you'd have to think seriously about how to address the co-ordination problem, and you'd have to describe it in... I can't think of a good word, so I'll say "non-judgemental" terms. It is _possible_, for example, that the work crews are, from their point of view, working out ad-hoc solutions to hte problems they are faced with because they feel the problems require immediate solutions and can't wait for the "pointy-headed engineers who would slow them down", while the engineers are spending so much time playing catch-up because of those "neanderthal work crews who won't stop throwing together short-term solutions to problems which wind up causing extra work and higher costs". That is, everybody really _is_ trying to "do right" according to their concept of what "is needed".

Once you have your own thoughts down on paper, you'd spend some time with the engineers and crews to find out all the things you assumed that weren't true, as well as the ones you'd never even considered might be part of the situation. At which point you'd be ready to come up with a complete proposal and cost estimate.

At this point, you'd have at least two new options: (1) try to sell management on your taking on the whole problem and solving it, or (2) writing a proposal for "just the original work" which took the situation-as-you-see-it into account: extra time, work needing to be re-done, extra training, whatever.

If you decide on either of these, I'd stronly advise you not to bid low. From your description, you _will_ have frustrations; just make sure you'll make enough money on the deal to keep you from fighting the natural urge to develop an "I don't care anymore" attitude halfway through.

Or not. Jes' some thoughts.

Let us know what you decide to do.

Frank McKenney

-- "Humor is indispensable to democracy. It is the ingredient lacking in all the dictatorships in what seems to be an increasingly authoritarian world. It is the element that permits us to laugh at ourselves and with each other, whether we be political friends or foes." -- Edward Bennet Williams, "Humor and the Presidency"

-- Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887 Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all)

That's what I did the last time (it worked for me). But now they are asking me directly. So I'm afraid that a bid might not work.

I don't want to step in the middle of a problem involving corporate culture. They are trying to solve a problem by improving engineering processes and standards. That's meaningless if the operations people think that the front office is full of crap and they won't follow the drawings, no matter how pretty the artwork is.

So I'll fix their systems for big dollars and the problems will persist. The higher I bid, the bigger a jerk I'll look like when the project is done.

One of the linemen I talked to told me that the solution lies with walking into HQ with a loaded pistol. But by business card doesn't say 'assassin' and I don't know how to break that sort of news to them.

Not high up in management. I do know people there (see the above smart ass remark). The internal politics are generally known by the rank and file.

That would be like asking Cheney to sit down with Ahmadinejad and discuss the terms of his regime change.

They might offer to buy me a new dog. I'd rather not make up stories. Next month they could have a contract that doesn't involve corporate politics and I'd have to explain the sudden recovery of my mutt.

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:(snip)

(snip)

There is no guarantee that your best good efforts will last.

I worked on a project for my last firm. Very challenging radio system design. No user needs assessment done, Client's management just wanted to buy some low band repeaters plunk them down and "make them work". No frequency plan, no discussion with users. Per instructions, we put a few out in the field, found the local noise level way too high and variable to make meaningful benefit of the local repeaters. Management personnel subsequently changed, new folks were a bit more open minded to the design process, but still no user needs assessment was desired. I designed a voted multi-site network system, designed a frequency re-use plan, worried about fall backs, functionality and reliability and presented a formal design review (which was accepted). I then generated specs for an extensive SOW for bid. The repeaters were installed in a region and the system functioned well and exactly as expected. I subsequently left the firm. About same time, the Client's new manager arrived, not happy to leave things alone, he decided that my design was not "standardized enough", (to minimize system access time I intentionally used E&M signaling on the DS0's, forgoing EIA control tones). New manager cited "new user requirements", changed radio sites, added unneeded hardware, changed the signalling schemes to use in-band EIA tone remote control. (Thus increasing system delays for the multi-site system) and after many costly change orders, finally installed in two more regions. Those regions don't work very well as a result. I spoke with a former co-worker about the project. He was very unhappy with the situation. I asked, "they are still paying you, right?" He said yes. I said whats there to be unhappy about?

I suggest you write contract verbiage that includes your definition and expectations of a successful project (upon completion) and leave the internal politics to the Client. And yes, bid appropriately. Apparently you are the only one qualified to solve their immediate problems. I like to tactfully educate the Client during the process and try to leave them with some knowledge and tools to carry on after the engagement. But as you are aware, it can fall on deaf ears. At least I sleep well at night.

Me, too. I even demanded payment up front and they accepted the bid. :(

I think honesty is the best policy here. If you don't plan on doing business with them then be honest and say why and maybe they will fix their shit(and maybe you'll eventually get work from it). Be honest about it and be polite about it and either your gut feeling will be confirmed or they will change.

The hard part is finding out how to say it... I wouldn't be rude about it but make the reason obvious.

But if you do say it you better make sure that the reasons are true and that you don't blame anyone.

You might say something like "The environment is not conducive to successful project completion" and say why you feel that way. (might not be so firm about your opinion but "I believe" (even though it's a business situation))

If it involves the "higher-ups" then probably not worth it since obviously they are immature... if it doesn't and you are contacting them then it might be something they want to hear about.

Since you know more about the situation than anyone here it has to be your choice but I think honesty is always the best policy because it can lead to beneficial results for both sides... and if not then usually nothing lost.

If you are somewhat close to any one there you might pass it by them a little and see what they think.

Of course on the other hand money is money and maybe you can go in there and be an asshole to get the job done ;)

I guess I stick to not answering the customer's phonecalls... :-)

Why be in business if you're going to do that? BTW, I didn't even have a business phone line. The customers would just call me at home. Sometimes before the sun came up. :(

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