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OPAMP ASTABLE

I was thinking about building a small, low power dc/dc converter, +5 to maybe

-25 volts, to bias a photodiode. I only need maybe 0.5 mA, but I want the converter to be very quiet, which means no sharp switching edges or shoot-throughs. After futzing with a few ideas, I figured that a pair of r-r opamps, with reasonable slew rates, could do it. So, the opamp astable multivibrator. The complementary squarish waves are net 10 volts p-p, so could drive a 3:1 stepup transformer into a full-wave doubler or something.

The opamp inputs are swinging past the rails, so I don't know if the opamp model is correct. You'd expect ESD diodes or something. Anyhow, that can be fixed.

Version 4 SHEET 1 880 680 WIRE 176 -96 80 -96 WIRE 352 -96 256 -96 WIRE 240 -32 208 -32 WIRE 256 -32 240 -32 WIRE 208 0 208 -32 WIRE 80 16 80 -96 WIRE 176 16 80 16 WIRE 352 32 352 -96 WIRE 352 32 240 32 WIRE 144 48 128 48 WIRE 176 48 144 48 WIRE 208 80 208 64 WIRE 672 96 544 96 WIRE 720 96 672 96 WIRE 752 96 720 96 WIRE 672 128 672 96 WIRE 176 144 128 144 WIRE 352 144 352 32 WIRE 352 144 240 144 WIRE 544 176 544 96 WIRE 672 224 672 208 WIRE 720 224 672 224 WIRE 752 224 720 224 WIRE 672 256 672 224 WIRE 80 272 80 16 WIRE 176 272 80 272 WIRE 352 272 240 272 WIRE 544 304 544 256 WIRE 672 368 672 336 WIRE 128 384 128 144 WIRE 128 384 80 384 WIRE 176 384 128 384 WIRE 352 384 352 272 WIRE 352 384 256 384 WIRE 240 448 208 448 WIRE 256 448 240 448 WIRE 208 480 208 448 WIRE 80 496 80 384 WIRE 176 496 80 496 WIRE 352 512 352 384 WIRE 352 512 240 512 WIRE 144 528 128 528 WIRE 176 528 144 528 WIRE 208 560 208 544 FLAG 208 80 0 FLAG 208 560 0 FLAG 240 -32 +5 FLAG 240 448 +5 FLAG 144 48 V2 FLAG 144 528 V2 FLAG 544 304 0 FLAG 672 368 0 FLAG 720 96 +5 FLAG 720 224 V2 SYMBOL Opamps\\LT1498 208 -32 R0 WINDOW 0 63 91 Left 2 WINDOW 3 38 123 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName U1 SYMBOL Opamps\\LT1498 208 448 R0 WINDOW 0 68 91 Left 2 WINDOW 3 66 121 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName U2 SYMBOL res 272 -112 R90 WINDOW 0 -6 80 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 -32 34 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 10K SYMBOL res 272 368 R90 WINDOW 0 -15 77 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 -42 31 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R2 SYMATTR Value 10K SYMBOL voltage 544 160 R0 WINDOW 0 38 42 Left 2 WINDOW 3 43 72 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value 5 SYMBOL res 656 112 R0 WINDOW 0 57 32 Left 2 WINDOW 3 57 62 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMATTR Value 1K SYMBOL res 656 240 R0 WINDOW 0 55 40 Left 2 WINDOW 3 57 70 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R4 SYMATTR Value 1K SYMBOL cap 240 128 R90 WINDOW 0 71 45 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 44 -1 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value 10n SYMBOL cap 240 256 R90 WINDOW 0 -5 49 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 -32 0 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C2 SYMATTR Value 10n TEXT 472 432 Left 2 !.tran 2m TEXT 504 -56 Left 2 ;OPAMP ASTABLE TEXT 512 -8 Left 2 ;JL SEP 9, 2013

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John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
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Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin
Loading thread data ...

Any particular reason you aren't using a triangle wave generator? i mean, the goal was low noise.

Also, this is not the best part for a multivibrator. You are saturating the output bipolars. Not great if you are trying to keep the noise down. Further, if you make a triangle wave generator, you don't need the goofy rail to rail input stage. What you do is set up the trip points so you never slam a rail, i.e. keep the output devices out of saturation. Just observe the common mode input range for the opamp so it covers the trip points.

Triangle wave generators are commonly used on chips for a few reasons. Mostly because you generally have means to make accurate current sources. The slow slopes makes the requirements on the comparators pretty lax. And of course the lack of sharp edges means it generates little power supply noise. I've done them where you draw a constant current by switching the timing current between the cap or a supply rail.

However, you have a track record of posting this kind of stuff and never taking good advice. ;-)

Reply to
miso

Saturation causes noise?

I'm not working on-chip, but with parts on a board, so I don't want 90 transistors or whatever, current sources and comparators and all that. One of my stated requirements is "small."

It's not hard to make a triangle, but then it needs to be amplified to drive the transformer, presumably with the opamp (or whatever) not railing.

Design something and post it.

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John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

[snip]

Wouldn't the old 4000 series chips be slow enough to do the trick? If you run it at 5V the rise/fall times are close to 100ns

Cheers

Klaus

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund

You need to avoid saturation of the transformer, so just use an old style astable around one opamp and capacitive couple to the transformer. That only takes one opamp and is more robust

Use the LM2902, it has a rise/fall time of 10us, but may be just to current hungry so your efficiency will quite low

Cheers

Klaus

Reply to
Klaus Kragelund

[...]

Is this finally a job for.... Yes..! The dreaded Baxandall oscillator!!?

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John Devereux
Reply to
John Devereux

When you saturate a bipolar, the base current increases. Essentially it is like the device becomes less efficient. You see this with bipolar LDOs, even with sat-catcher circuitry. So the saturation of the output device will be reflected on the supply rails as an increase in current, hence noise. At the same time, the op amp loses gain. In real life, you get "sticking", something seen in poorly designed audio amps where some bipolar gets saturated and the charge is "stuck" on the base so to speak. [I have a distaste for bipolar switching circuits, being of the mos era. A bipolar transistor is substantially more difficult to model than people think.]

I think I'll pass on your offer for a lavish design contract. I'm sure there are plenty of schematics of triangle wave generators on the net using discretes. A triangle wave is usually your best bet for a clean low noise oscillator, well at least as far as relaxation oscillator circuits go.

Instead of current sources, you just charge the cap through a resistor. Not as good, but this isn't critical timing.

As an aside, if you want the cap voltage to go to ground, a similar design can be made with two sawtooth oscillators triggering each other. That design just needs one reference. You charge one cap while discharging the other. You find this is in some DC/DC designs, generally of the discontinuous conduction type.

Any time you design an oscillator, you need to meditate on is there a scenario where it just latches. That is, can it be "born" in a stable state.

Reply to
miso

He wants small, and the classic Baxandall needs an inductor and a transform er, which is to say, two cores. And he'd have to get them wound. Way outsid e his comfort zone.

That apart, it's an obvious solution. With a 5V rail you could use a pair o f MOS-FETs to do the switching, with the gates cross-connected to the drain s - no driver winding. There's odd-order harmonic content in the current go ing through the feed inductor - see

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Farnell stocks RM4 cores and formers - 0.4" square (10mm x 10mm) and he'd h ave to find space for two of them. They offer 3.5uH per turn squared. They are Ferroxcube parts so it's a pain to work out where they'd saturate - you 've got to dig back through the materials specification - but IIRR they'd b e fine.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

4000s are kind of wimpy to drive a step-up transformer, and I'd prefer microsecond edges. CMOS has shoot-through spikes, too.

Yeah, I assumed that I'd cap couple into the transformer to avoud DC current.

May as well use a dual opamp and get twice the p-p swing. A dual MSOP opamp is tiny, and the whole thing self-oscillates.

There are some nice r-r opamps around that are very clean saturating and coming off the rails. AD8566 for example... super well behaved.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

Only if you feed it more base current! And, why does that matter anyhow?

Essentially it

Saturated, it has gain = 0. I knew that.

In real life, you

There are some r-r bipolar opamps that saturate, and come off the rails, beautifully, with no sticking and no shoot-through currents. AD8566 is great. I use them as comparators sometimes.

The triangle part is easy. But then it has to be gained up to put power into a transformer.

I think my dual opamp multibrator is inherently unstable.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

Except for being ten times the volume and a hundred times the price, I'd agree.

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John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

Yes, but apart from that...

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John Devereux
Reply to
John Devereux

rote:

o maybe

the

of r-r

so could

pamp model

fixed.

agree.

Two RM4 cores is 0.128 cubic inches - that they stick up 0.4 inches above t he board might be a nuisance.

The cores would cost about $2 per pair - $4 - in small quantities, and the formers a bit more - so say $10 in total, plus the cost of winding the wire onto the formers. John seems to be thinking that his circuit will cost les s than $0.20.

EP7 cores and formers are a tiny bit smaller, cheaper and flatter. There's a new generation of even flatter cores around for surface mount work, but I 've not used them and I'm certainly not going spend time working out what J ohn might have wanted to use if he didn't suffer from NIH.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
Bill Sloman

The LT1498 are very expensive.

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 07:37:20 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

All LTC stuff is expensive, but the models, in LT Spice, are free. I usually start simulating with an LTC part, and use something else in real life. In some cases, like LT1028 or 1124, where the performance is worth it, we stick with the Linear part. I'm thinking about using an AD8566, and I'd breadboard it too.

This looks promising: low parts count if I use a dual opamp, resistor networks, dual diode, maybe even a cap network.

Version 4 SHEET 1 1248 680 WIRE 112 -96 80 -96 WIRE 176 -96 112 -96 WIRE 352 -96 256 -96 WIRE 240 -32 208 -32 WIRE 256 -32 240 -32 WIRE 208 0 208 -32 WIRE 80 16 80 -96 WIRE 176 16 80 16 WIRE 352 32 352 -96 WIRE 352 32 240 32 WIRE 480 32 352 32 WIRE 560 32 480 32 WIRE 144 48 128 48 WIRE 176 48 144 48 WIRE 352 48 352 32 WIRE 208 80 208 64 WIRE 560 112 560 32 WIRE 176 144 128 144 WIRE 352 144 352 128 WIRE 352 144 240 144 WIRE 816 176 688 176 WIRE 880 176 816 176 WIRE 992 176 944 176 WIRE 1088 176 992 176 WIRE 1152 176 1088 176 WIRE -176 224 -304 224 WIRE -128 224 -176 224 WIRE -96 224 -128 224 WIRE 992 224 992 176 WIRE 560 240 560 176 WIRE 688 240 688 176 WIRE -176 256 -176 224 WIRE 80 272 80 16 WIRE 176 272 80 272 WIRE 352 272 240 272 WIRE 352 288 352 272 WIRE -304 304 -304 224 WIRE 1152 304 1152 176 WIRE -176 352 -176 336 WIRE -128 352 -176 352 WIRE -96 352 -128 352 WIRE 688 352 688 320 WIRE 992 352 992 288 WIRE 992 352 688 352 WIRE -176 384 -176 352 WIRE 128 384 128 144 WIRE 128 384 80 384 WIRE 176 384 128 384 WIRE 352 384 352 368 WIRE 352 384 256 384 WIRE 480 384 352 384 WIRE 560 384 560 320 WIRE 560 384 480 384 WIRE 992 416 992 352 WIRE -304 432 -304 384 WIRE 1152 432 1152 384 WIRE 240 448 208 448 WIRE 256 448 240 448 WIRE 208 480 208 448 WIRE -176 496 -176 464 WIRE 80 496 80 384 WIRE 176 496 80 496 WIRE 816 496 816 176 WIRE 880 496 816 496 WIRE 992 496 992 480 WIRE 992 496 944 496 WIRE 352 512 352 384 WIRE 352 512 240 512 WIRE 144 528 128 528 WIRE 176 528 144 528 WIRE 992 544 992 496 WIRE 208 560 208 544 FLAG 208 80 0 FLAG 208 560 0 FLAG 240 -32 +5 FLAG 240 448 +5 FLAG 144 48 V2 FLAG 144 528 V2 FLAG -304 432 0 FLAG -176 496 0 FLAG -128 224 +5 FLAG -128 352 V2 FLAG 992 544 0 FLAG 1152 432 0 FLAG 1088 176 OUT FLAG 480 32 A FLAG 480 384 B FLAG 112 -96 G SYMBOL Opamps\\LT1498 208 -32 R0 WINDOW 0 63 91 Left 2 WINDOW 3 38 123 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName U1 SYMBOL Opamps\\LT1498 208 448 R0 WINDOW 0 74 88 Left 2 WINDOW 3 54 123 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName U2 SYMBOL res 272 -112 R90 WINDOW 0 -7 80 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 -35 34 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 10K SYMBOL res 272 368 R90 WINDOW 0 -15 77 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 -42 31 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R2 SYMATTR Value 10K SYMBOL voltage -304 288 R0 WINDOW 0 49 41 Left 2 WINDOW 3 55 73 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value 5 SYMBOL res -192 240 R0 WINDOW 0 57 32 Left 2 WINDOW 3 57 62 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMATTR Value 2K SYMBOL res -192 368 R0 WINDOW 0 55 40 Left 2 WINDOW 3 57 70 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R4 SYMATTR Value 2K SYMBOL cap 240 128 R90 WINDOW 0 71 45 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 42 -2 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value 5n SYMBOL cap 240 256 R90 WINDOW 0 -5 49 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 -32 -1 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C2 SYMATTR Value 5n SYMBOL res 368 144 R180 WINDOW 0 -53 70 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -54 38 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R5 SYMATTR Value 2K SYMBOL res 368 384 R180 WINDOW 0 -53 77 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -53 42 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R6 SYMATTR Value 2K SYMBOL ind2 544 224 R0 WINDOW 0 -59 32 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -64 65 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName L1 SYMATTR Value 1m SYMATTR Type ind SYMBOL cap 544 112 R0 WINDOW 0 -54 16 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -59 52 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName C3 SYMATTR Value 22µ SYMBOL ind2 672 224 R0 WINDOW 0 69 36 Left 2 WINDOW 3 65 68 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName L2 SYMATTR Value 9m SYMATTR Type ind SYMBOL cap 976 224 R0 WINDOW 0 59 25 Left 2 WINDOW 3 63 57 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName C4 SYMATTR Value 330n SYMBOL cap 976 416 R0 WINDOW 0 59 7 Left 2 WINDOW 3 61 44 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName C5 SYMATTR Value 330n SYMBOL schottky 944 160 R90 WINDOW 0 -51 30 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 -43 32 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName D1 SYMATTR Value BAT46WJ SYMATTR Description Diode SYMATTR Type diode SYMBOL schottky 880 512 R270 WINDOW 0 -25 -2 VTop 2 WINDOW 3 -29 -1 VBottom 2 SYMATTR InstName D2 SYMATTR Value BAT46WJ SYMATTR Description Diode SYMATTR Type diode SYMBOL res 1136 288 R0 WINDOW 0 64 40 Left 2 WINDOW 3 61 74 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R7 SYMATTR Value 60K TEXT -240 80 Left 2 !.tran 5m TEXT -288 -48 Left 2 ;OPAMP ASTABLE TEXT -280 0 Left 2 ;JL SEP 10, 2013 TEXT 584 448 Left 2 !K L1 L2 0.98

Maybe I could try a sinewave oscillator, like a single npn Colpitts, like in an old Tek crt HV supply.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

Consider photovoltaic thingy.

VLV

Reply to
Vladimir Vassilevsky

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 22:29:06 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

Here's a modified triangle oscillator that is pretty sine-y. It would need a voltage follower and inverter buffer to get the 10V P-P, so a couple duals or a quad.

Version 4 SHEET 1 932 788 WIRE 176 -128 80 -128 WIRE 352 -128 240 -128 WIRE 256 -32 208 -32 WIRE 208 0 208 -32 WIRE 80 16 80 -128 WIRE 176 16 80 16 WIRE 352 32 352 -128 WIRE 352 32 240 32 WIRE 144 48 128 48 WIRE 176 48 144 48 WIRE 208 80 208 64 WIRE 672 96 544 96 WIRE 720 96 672 96 WIRE 752 96 720 96 WIRE 672 128 672 96 WIRE 352 144 352 32 WIRE 352 144 -16 144 WIRE 544 176 544 96 WIRE 672 224 672 208 WIRE 720 224 672 224 WIRE 752 224 720 224 WIRE 672 256 672 224 WIRE 80 272 80 16 WIRE 192 272 80 272 WIRE 352 272 272 272 WIRE 432 272 352 272 WIRE -16 288 -16 144 WIRE 432 288 432 272 WIRE 544 304 544 256 WIRE 352 352 352 272 WIRE 672 368 672 336 WIRE 432 400 432 352 WIRE 240 448 208 448 WIRE 256 448 240 448 WIRE 208 480 208 448 WIRE 128 496 112 496 WIRE 176 496 128 496 WIRE 352 512 352 432 WIRE 352 512 240 512 WIRE -16 528 -16 368 WIRE 176 528 -16 528 WIRE 208 560 208 544 WIRE -16 640 -16 528 WIRE 112 640 -16 640 WIRE 352 640 352 512 WIRE 352 640 192 640 FLAG 208 80 0 FLAG 208 560 0 FLAG 256 -32 +5 FLAG 240 448 +5 FLAG 144 48 V2 FLAG 544 304 0 FLAG 672 368 0 FLAG 720 96 +5 FLAG 720 224 V2 FLAG 128 496 V2 FLAG 432 400 0 SYMBOL Opamps\\LT1498 208 -32 R0 WINDOW 0 63 91 Left 2 WINDOW 3 38 123 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName U1 SYMBOL Opamps\\LT1498 208 448 R0 WINDOW 0 68 91 Left 2 WINDOW 3 66 121 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName U2 SYMBOL voltage 544 160 R0 WINDOW 0 38 42 Left 2 WINDOW 3 43 72 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value 5 SYMBOL res 656 112 R0 WINDOW 0 57 32 Left 2 WINDOW 3 57 62 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMATTR Value 1K SYMBOL res 656 240 R0 WINDOW 0 55 40 Left 2 WINDOW 3 57 70 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName R4 SYMATTR Value 1K SYMBOL cap 240 -144 R90 WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName C3 SYMATTR Value 10n SYMBOL res 288 256 R90 WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 5K SYMBOL res 208 624 R90 WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R6 SYMATTR Value 15K SYMBOL res -32 272 R0 SYMATTR InstName R2 SYMATTR Value 10K SYMBOL res 336 336 R0 SYMATTR InstName R5 SYMATTR Value 5K SYMBOL cap 416 288 R0 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value 10n TEXT 472 432 Left 2 !.tran 2m TEXT 504 -56 Left 2 ;OPAMP TRIANGLE GENERATOR TEXT 504 -16 Left 2 ;SP SEP 10, 2013

Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

Good idea. That would be ideal if I can get enough current. Maybe I can arrange my circuit so that the only load on the negative HV supply is photodiode current, nothing else.

We actually already stock Toshiba TLP191B. That's 7 volts, 25 uA. Three or four of them in series might do it. It would sure be quiet. Efficiency is insanely low, but that's not important here.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation 
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators 
Custom timing and laser controllers 
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links 
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer 
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Reply to
John Larkin

m

lly

n some

ith the

o.

works,

in an

I think you're going to find that the non-clamping inputs significantly aff ect the timing. The basic idea is workable.

Reply to
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred

[snip]

Probably so. "This looks promising" puts horrendous current spikes onto the rails. ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

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