Noise Models [Lost the thread of something, something learning oscillators]

John Larkin posted a model in LTspice using four stages of rand() functions and then a low pass to generate a gaussian 1 Vrms noise source.

When I went back to reply to that post, yes, I deleted everything, so here is new thread.

Synapses, the generator consisted of an amplitude times a function containing four rand functions with their arguments having very diverse prime? multipliers. The output of that generator then fed into a simple low pass to generate approximately 1 Vrms output between 1Hz and 1kHz

With .tran 0 1 0 10u; took a LONG time on my system to run! but ok...

Yes, output is 1Vrms. Yes, output distribution is a fair representation of a gaussian source, within statistical limits for small sample set, just slightly squashed peak of 1.2 instead of 1.8, but within limits.

BUT, the spectrum decidedly tilts downwards! between 1Hz to 100Hz drops over 1 dB, then another 2dB by 500Hz, and then rounds down almost 6dB!!! To make up for this tilted spectral distribution the low frequency end is higher magnitude than a true gaussian source, almost 3X larger to compensate and still produce 1 Vrms.

To convince yourself, plot V(out) in FFT, but manually change scales to

1kHz maximum and use linear, not decibel, to exacerbate the effect. You'll see a descending line to the right and a significant drop near 1kHz.

Almost forgot, the noise distribution near 300Hz was VERY 'ratty' instead of a spectrum of constant fuzz like one would expect, the spectrum has a 'lump' near 300Hz where the 'noise' of the noise is greater. Have no idea of the significance, if any, of that.

Reply to
RobertMacy
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Didn't anybody read this?

Reply to
RobertMacy

Sorry, been busy.

This isn't bad:

Version 4 SHEET 1 1484 680 WIRE 208 64 128 64 WIRE 256 64 208 64 WIRE 416 64 336 64 WIRE 480 64 416 64 WIRE 528 64 480 64 WIRE 128 96 128 64 WIRE 416 112 416 64 WIRE 128 208 128 176 WIRE 416 208 416 176 FLAG 128 208 0 FLAG 208 64 RAW FLAG 416 208 0 FLAG 480 64 OUT SYMBOL bv 128 80 R0 WINDOW 0 34 107 Left 2 WINDOW 3 -79 203 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName B1 SYMATTR Value V= VS * ( rand(K1*time) + rand(K2*time) + rand(K3*time) + rand(K4*time) + rand(K5*time) + rand(K6*time) - 3 ) SYMBOL res 352 48 R90 WINDOW 0 63 52 VBottom 2 WINDOW 3 68 54 VTop 2 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 1 SYMBOL cap 400 112 R0 WINDOW 0 85 22 Left 2 WINDOW 3 63 55 Left 2 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value 1.6e-4 TEXT 736 216 Left 2 !.tran 0 50 0 5u TEXT 88 -64 Left 2 ;1 volt RMS 1 KHz Time-domain Noise Generator TEXT 240 -16 Left 2 ;J Larkin August 1, 2014 TEXT 704 -64 Left 2 !.PARAM K2 = {21599} TEXT 704 -104 Left 2 !.PARAM K1 = {13001} TEXT 704 -24 Left 2 !.PARAM K3 = {17377} TEXT 704 16 Left 2 !.PARAM K4 = {7001} TEXT 704 152 Left 2 !.PARAM VS = {3} TEXT 704 56 Left 2 !.PARAM K5 = {15803} TEXT 704 96 Left 2 !.PARAM K6 = {8011}

It seems to like fairly large primes as the K values. And to get a decent FFT, you need to run it for a long time, hundreds of seconds, maybe an hour of real time. The signal is, well, noisy. Real spectrum analyzers have the same problem with noise: the display is ratty unless you sweep really slow.

As Phil notes, it would be great if the FFT display could be smoothed or binned or something. Still, at low frequencies you need a lot of sim time to get a good FFT. You may as well just assume the LF part of the spectrum is flat, and save a lot of time.

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation
Reply to
John Larkin

Wow! that takes some time to run.

I changed the cap to 0.8e-4 to keep the noise flat out 'to' 1kHz, without doing that the noise rolls down about 3dB there.

But still strange noise source. VERY flat from 50Hz up to 1kHz, but something's going wonky between 0.1Hz and 10Hz. Definitely still tilts from the low frequency area down to 50Hz. But from 50 on out it's flat.

Yes, I have a program that 'averages' the frequency bins in a way without significantly changing the information. If you overlay the plots, raw and smoothed, they pretty much look like expected, where the smooth is the 'center [average] of the huge quantity of hash. hope that word doesn't trigger echelon, ...again. ;)

Reply to
RobertMacy

ALL noise sources are strange!

--

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc 
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com    

Precision electronic instrumentation
Reply to
John Larkin

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