Modern 486

bitrex snipped-for-privacy@example.net wrote in news:ONPVJ.66196$yi_7.35911 @fx39.iad:

I did not see "486" it says "X86".

Likely a 386 'like' core. I doubt it got copied without big problems with the 486 API and micro-architecture.

Has to represent itself as something to the OS, and it says it supports Linux up to kernel 4.14, but Linux dropped support for 386 hardware in kernel v 3.8:

So I'm guessing it represents itself to a later kernel as as at least a

486-class processor, though perhaps it could still be more-or-less a 386 under-the-hood, and just implement the set of instructions needed to get a later kernel version to work.

Looks like on more modern Linux kernels without support for i386 an atomic compare-and-swap instruction is part of what's required, that the

386-class CPU didn't have.

On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:21:49 -0500) it happened bitrex snipped-for-privacy@example.net wrote in <ONPVJ.66196$yi snipped-for-privacy@fx39.iad:

I really do not know, I use Raspberries these days, so far so good. Just add one if needed, 8 GB RAM build in. Quad core each. The latest ones can run 64 bit Linux.

Wifi, Bluetooth, **I/O pins**, Ethernet, HDMI, microSD card slot, analog audio out, USB slots, low power, video hardware acceleration PC is dead

There are maller boards with less RAM that make good embedded systems

Reliable, some older models have been running for 10 years 24/7 here.

All sorts of oen source software Lighter, smaller, cheaper etc etc :-0)

Than what? These chips appear to be a pretty complete solution to a lot of problems. Your rPi has multiple chips on board and that runs up the cost. The rPi got a start only because a bunch of money was thrown at it with no expectation of making a profit. If the same was done with these devices I expect a lower cost device could be made and would become popular because of running Windows as well as Linux and other OS.

There's nothing magical about the rPi. There's nothing magical about the ARM processors they are built on. Most electronics is reliable. You actually have to work pretty hard to design non-power electronics that isn't reliable. It's inherent in the nature of electronics these days.

Not many - most of it is in the system-on-a-chip. There are cheaper embedded Linux cards, but not /much/ cheaper.

Yes, that's how it started. Then it took off, and it is self-sustaining. The boards are not subsidised. (Nor do the folks behind it try to make a significant profit.)

There have never been any x86 devices at this level that match ARM-based systems for price or power. It's probably not impossible, but basic ARM cores need less die space and less power. Once your costs are dominated by caches, big SIMD blocks, and the like, it can be a fairer fight.

Would anyone want to run Windows on small devices like this? I guess people would like it in theory, but in practice Windows is painful even on small Intel devices. Windows is very much a minor player in embedded cards, even x86 ones. But I expect some of these Vortex chips will be useful in updates of legacy systems - after all, there are still embedded systems running DOS (and FreeDOS made a new release recently).

True.

True.

Other cores could be used. MIPS would make sense if any of the big manufacturers took the chance - but these days, RISC-V is the one to watch.

Rick C snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

Your chip has NO HDMI or audio.

His multi-chip board carries all the needs and does it very cheaply. What is to piss and moan about? Oh that's right... you piss and moan about so many things.

That chip is a processor. To make use of it, MANY other chips would have to be incorporated into a design to make a functional product. Even for industrial applications, which is its target.

A couple of things that use it ...

This Commercial Kitchen Appliance Uses an Original Pentium Clone CPU (and Runs DOS)!

MSTI PDX-1000 1 GHz Vortex86DX Linux thin client PC

David Brown snipped-for-privacy@hesbynett.no wrote in news:t0alfn$rru$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

They should have continued developing and upgrading the Cell processor, but that was doomed by the fact that multiple companies were involved who were long time competitors with each other.

But it was a hell of a CPU, and little lab sized super computers were even made from it using game consoles, so it was pretty robsut for it's day and could have easily scaled up to beat Intel or AMD's crap.

Ah, so you agree. It's nice for people to support once in a while rather than always arguing.

Didn't say they were. My point is there's not a lot of opportunity to compete given the cost and risk of ramping up a similar project. What made the rPi a success was the Musk approach of announcing a price point that was not sustainable by a for-profit company and barely was a breakeven for a non-profit, in addition to the publicity from being a non-profit targeting "education". In Musk's case they never made a profit at $35,000 and now you have to spend something like $45,000 for an entry level car. The rPi is a lot more than $25 now. I see a model for $75. Yup, they took a page out of Elon Musk's playbook.

So you have the details that show this to be the case for the Vortex86?

You don't know what the market is for a small Windows machine. It has the one humongous advantage of not having to learn Linux. I know a guy who uses a complete small form factor PC for similar things as an rPi would be used for by others, complete with a 23 inch monitor and keyboard. He just likes the convenience of the interface, since that's what is used by 99% of people who aren't geeks.

You are thinking like a geek. Windows is not for geeks. Maybe, if you try hard enough, you can think like a person who isn't a geek. It is not always about which is the "better" product. Beta was a better video tape format, but VHS was the one we ended up using.

but 32bit windows is going the way of the dinosaurs, afaik OEMs have not been able to get windows in 32 bit for few years, and win11 is 64bit only

but who other that someone needing to run some prehistoric 32 bit x86 application in some kind of embedded device has any use for a 486?

Hey, I can run DosBox on my phone!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

but you don't need an actual x86 for that

On a sunny day (Wed, 9 Mar 2022 07:39:36 -0800 (PST)) it happened Rick C snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

For starters my RPI 4s runs at 1.5 GHz clock maximum, 50% more than that thing: # lscpu Architecture: armv7l Byte Order: Little Endian CPU(s): 4 On-line CPU(s) list: 0-3 Thread(s) per core: 1 Core(s) per socket: 4 Socket(s): 1 Vendor ID: ARM Model: 3 Model name: Cortex-A72 Stepping: r0p3 CPU max MHz: 1500.0000 CPU min MHz: 600.0000

Raspis can run that MS OS or so I've heard:

And X86 is not exactly a very clean architecture.

Well it is a very good processer architecture.

Also has a lot of on board hardware that you can do fun things with: FM radio transmitter:

Square wave signal generator software for the Raspberry Pi version B, frequency range from about 150 kHz to 500 MHz,

What's inherent is that standards change very often so you have to buy new stuff before the old stuff breaks down. Like phones for example.

All that said I have now 5 raspis, 4 are on right now, 3 on 24/7, one works as router with a 4G USB stick. Plus a laptop that did see hundreds of lines of C code written to one of those raspis today to get X to do what I want:

same font directly to X buffer, just added a double width double height option. Raspi, HDMI out, or in this case via ssh to my laptop. Competely bypass XLib

You must be thinking of something other than

. The PowerPC ISA has many good points - low cost and low power are not amongst them. The Cell was a very specialist kind of chip, and very different from the general-purpose systems-on-a-chip under discussion.

It's possible to do some googling and look at prices for small embedded Linux boards - including the Pi range (which includes "lite" and "zero" variants). Prices are similar at the low end, varying a little depending on hardware details. More "professional" or "industrial" cards are, of course, more expensive - but come with more support, or physical testing, or commitments to long-term availability.

There are plenty of competitor cards now. But the Pi opened the market.

It would have been a success if it had been 10% more expensive - a solid margin for profit. It would still have been /much/ cheaper than alternatives of the time.

What made it a success was the involvement of Broadcom, and the marketing as an educational tool. At the time the Pi was conceived, you couldn't get any information on any Broadcom device unless you were planning on buying 100,000 devices a year. They made (amongst other things) system-on-a-chip devices for set-top boxes and that kind of thing. These were ideal for a small, cheap Linux card, but completely out of reach for small developers. The Pi concept was developed by a group that included a high-ranking Broadcom employee, who persuaded the company that this would be a great marketing opportunity. This is what lead to Pi being realisable at a much lower price point than other embedded Linux cards at the time, which used chips such as Freescale i.mx devices.

You get a Pi 3 for $35 - that's not at all bad, compared to the first Pi for $25 a decade ago. You get a lot more variants now, including "Zero" boards for $10 - $15, up to Pi 4 with 8 GB ram for $75.

I can't answer for Musk, but I really don't think it's fair to say the Pi was introduced and advertised at an artificially low price. It was as low as they could manage, but not lower.

No. That's why I said "it's probably not impossible", but certainly it hasn't been achieved before. (And if the Vortex folk manage it, that's great.)

It all depends on what you are doing with the device. I don't want to go into Windows vs. Linux wars (I use Windows /and/ Linux, and need both for my work, and each has its pros and cons). But you can do more with Linux on a small system than you can with Windows. There's nothing wrong with having a small machine for running Windows - these days small form-factor machines are fine for most purposes. However, the minimum level of computing power (processor power, ram, disk space) needed to do something useful with Windows is a lot higher than the minimum needed for Linux.

Most people these days have more Linux machines than Windows machines - they just don't realise it. "Geek" is about what you do with the machine, not what OS it has - I am a geek whether I use my Windows PC or my Linux PC. My mother-in-law is not a geek, though both her desktop and her laptop run Linux and she hasn't seen Windows for a couple of decades.

However, these kinds of small computers are not aimed at everyday use as a main PC by a non-geek. They are aimed at people who know what they are doing - or are learning to know what they are doing. Very few people use Pi's as a main PC, and very few will use Vortex-based cards as a main PC (Windows or Linux).

I think embedded is the market segment but 32 bit x86 is still a large market segment thanks to a lil prolific shit bird of an OS called Windows CE, which likely runs pretty snappy on a 1 GHz 486-ish processor and is likely still running ten million e.g. mall information kiosks, bowling alley scoring machines, and "rapid transit" fare card dispensers across this great US of A.

Nobody wants to re write that software, doing it sucked enough the first time.

David Brown snipped-for-privacy@hesbynett.no wrote in news:t0b1b5$c5$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

Oh OK, so IF the discussion was SOC, and suddenly talking about CPU power is off, then why did PanJan's rPi get accepted? It is not SOC or SOM. It too is several components... perhaps using and SOM as its core. The Cell was years ago, just as SOC ws getting going. So it was just a CPU and all those accessories were peripherally added, so sure, I guees not on par with theu guy posting a nice new chip.

It is decidedly not an SOC either. Or if you are talking about just how many system elements are on the rPi's CPU, then sure. The Cell had few system accessories built into it.

So OK... then. Before I got my rPi, I used a little known tiny PC made in Isreal at a company called SolidRun that caters to everything you are on about, and does so masterfully, but at a higher cost, and other chips still have to added to make a system. An SOC, for example cannot also have optical ports on it, like SFP, they are externally added and just the data I/O goes through the system comm lanes (bottom link).

The little guy I had was an early consuner product they sold, but they also mainly do SOM.

Hmmm... do you really think every application needs a Core i9? I think we are not in the same conversation. This is in comparison to the uses for an rPi. People use those as disk servers and music servers, etc. in the home. A 486 at 1 GHz would be about perfect. No need for a big power supply or a big, noisy fan.

Yeah, I'd be much more interested in an rPi that ran Windows. Everything I've ever done on the rPi I had to dig on the Internet to find out how to do it, then I had to dig around on the Internet to learn what that meant. If you don't use it all the time, it's a lot of work learning, then relearning...

I'm not a Windows lover, but I'm not a hater either. Sometimes you drive a Chrysler K car, just because it's easy and available.

Actually, the rPi didn't open the market. There were a number of similar products before the rPi. But they did not have the large following which I already explained was because of the very low price (no profit required) and the "educational" emphasis. Those two things gave it a *huge* send off in the press and launched a phenomenon. Otherwise, the rPi is no more than a Beagle Bone or similar product. With the huge following, software came in droves and pretty much for free. That sealed the deal, not unlike the Arudino.

Or the TI line. I don't believe for a minute the success of the rPi was about Broadcom. Any company would be happy to give great prices to anyone promising to buy a million a year.

You are missing the point. It was bait and switch, just with an extended time line. They got famous on the $25 price, then sold more expensive units and don't even have a $25 unit anymore. I'm not saying they did anything wrong. I'm just pointing out how important it was for the publicity from the $25 price point. Many thought they could not do it without losing money.

So we'll wait and see. Actually, it seems they've been doing this for a while already. So I guess the fact they are still here says it all!

I'm sure Linux has many advantages, if you use it. The only reason I use Linux is because I have to on the rPi.

Who cares about invisible software?

As is often the case, my point went right over your head... wooosh!

They are aimed at anyone who buys them. I'm simply pointing out there is a market for Windows users who don't want to learn a whole 'nother OS. Like me!